Posting Rates

[Mradyfist]

Hey, looks like you just broke 7000 with that post!

I'm actually really glad that you mentioned doing gigs in context with engineering, because it resonates with me. When I was still playing with a regular band, I was always the guy who brought up money; we'd get a gig playing somewhere, and I'd ask what it paid first off. Somehow I ended up swinging completely the opposite since I stopped playing with the band and started engineering, and now I'm the guy who worries that other people won't like me because of money issues.

I guess it seems different now, because I feel like I'm in a different place at the end of the day. When I played with a band, I felt good up until near the end, when I got exhausted and irritated and just wanted to go home. When I record someone else, I feel nervous and worried and almost want them to leave, but near the end things start coming together and all of a sudden I wish I could spend all day playing with knobs. Seems wrong to be having fun and getting paid for it, but I guess if I saved up the money I spent trying to make this place good to record in, I probably could've bought a new car. From a dealership.

[JGriffin]

i'm pretty bummed out now, i shoulda kept my hands off the keyboard.

My sincerest apologies.

[RefD]

i'm pretty bummed out now, i shoulda kept my hands off the keyboard.

My sincerest apologies.

nonono, not your doing.

[percussion boy]

I was telling a story today about a session I did about two years ago where a clarinet player was hired for a session, but couldn't figure out what to play. The producer finally came up with a part and sang it to the clarinet player. The clarinet player just COULDN'T get it, so I had to write out the part, transpose it to b-flat, and give it to the clarinet player to sight read. When's the last time that a DRUMMER was the only person in the building who could write a chart for clarinet in the correct key?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

You go, boy.

[8th_note]

Im about to change my rate schedule to match 8th_note:

Geez, I guess I better check in with this forum more often.

It's funny that my website got mentioned because I had pretty much forgotten about it. I haven't updated that site in a couple years and I guess I better pay some atttention to it. I refer people to my Myspace page now. Since making that website I have raised my rates 50% - I now charge $75 per song!

A few projects ago I recorded a band of three high school kids who were very talented. Before we started they genuinely asked me what would happen if they didn't meet all the criteria on my web site. I patiently explained to them that it was meant in humor and that I was confident that everything would be fine (it was).

I post my rates because I cater to a clientele that A) doesn't have much money, and B) has to know what the project is going to cost up front. I'm in a different niche than most recordists so I don't particularly advocate this system but it works for me.

What I've found for my type of clientele is that the most important thing is for the band to know the total cost going into the project. I explain to them that the cost is fixed but my time and effort is flexible. If they have their act together and can lay it down I will spend as much time as necessary to make them an excellent recording. This strategy seems to be working because the quality of talent I've been recording is constantly improving. I think the decision on posting rates is a key element of one's business strategy. It has to be viewed in a broader context.

[T-rex]

Chris, awesome post on the money thing. I also hate talking money, but working in the business world for my day job has pretty much gotten me over that. It's funny because if you are confident about it and serious, then people generally take you seriously and it's a 2 minute thing and it's over. Otherwise, you get a bunch of people hemming and hawing about how much and how long etc. and it becomes this long drawn out thing.

I don't post rates because my work is all word of mouth and any money I make goes to buy more gear.

Also, I am a drummer and I pretty much know every word to any song I have ever played. I can't transpose a chord to save my life, but I know every lyric and vocal mark right off the bat. Unless I am playing jazz or any instrumental music, I like to know the lyrics so I can help get across the emotion of the song.

[cgarges]

Chris, awesome post on the money thing.

Thanks, man.

I played a gig last night that once again had two bits of relevance to this thread. One, I totally caught the singer on the gig singing verses out of order and two, there's a good money/karma story that goes along with it:

I had an early wedding reception jazz gig last night from 6-10 that paid really well. On Tuesday, I got a call from a guy I know who I've never played with before about doing a soul/R&B gig from 10:30 to 1:30. The pay wasn't great, but I knew that this guy was in a bind and I thought the gig would be fun. I explained to him that I had another gig and I probably couldn't get to his until 11PM, so I could do it if that was okay, but if he wanted to get someone else, that was understandable. He told me that it would probably be fine, so I agreed to do it.

As it turned out, the wedding gig wrapped up a little early, so I was able to get to the next gig by about ten after ten and we were able to start at 10:30. The gig was fun, even though there weren't many people at the bar.

At the end of the night, the band leader wrote me a check for the amount he had mentioned and as we finished loading out, he mentioned something to me and the guitar player about how the club hadn't paid him what he expected. It turned out that he has a weekend gig booked there in February where they gave him a guarantee, so he assumed when they called him to cover this thing a few days ago, the bread would be the same. Apparently, the club doesn't pay a guarantee during the week, but since no one had brought up money when this thing was set up, it got weird when it came time to get paid.

In any case, the band leader still paid us what we were told we would get. I offered to let him write me another check, just so he wasn't talking a hit, but he refused, saying that this wasn't going to break him or anything. He stuck to what he had told me, even though he was losing money on the deal.

I think that's really admirable of him and the next time he calls me for a gig that doesn't pay well or for some kind of favor or something, I'm right there for him. Good karma.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[joelpatterson]

So right. The only thing that lasts is the way people treat each other, which always comes down to what is at the core of their character.

Money is like the waters of a river that propell us through life. You need it to get anywhere, but it's really pretty intangible and void-ish. You can't "buy" happiness, and you can't "buy" the respect of those around you. The only way to do that is by being a good person.

[CurtZHP]

I don't post my rates because I like to actually have some contact with people..

That's a good point, and ironically is also a major reason why I like people to know my rates before I talk to them. For me, telling people how much I charge is absolutely one of the worst parts of recording. I really love getting new sessions, but bringing up money (or answering the question of money) really bothers me; I think I want to do this full-time some day, but I really wish I could own a studio while getting a regular paycheck that wasn't at all tied to how much people wanted to pay me to work, kind of like my current day job. It's weird because I have all these reasons why I charge what I do, but I feel like it would really unnerve me to have to spell it out to someone.

And yet your local mechanic or plumber will make no apologies about what they charge. Granted, their services are often more "necessary" than recording, but watch them tell you without so much as the slightest bump in their heart rate that the repair you need to get on with your life is going to cost you a week's pay.

[rwc]

I stopped posting rates so I could juke them up for sessions I know I'm going to hate.

For example. One week ago, I had a call from someone to do a kind of session I knew would be boring and probably amount to nothing, from the kind of client who'd rub me wrong. Worked with other "producers" unsuccessfully, never finished something, etc. Seemed to care more about planning for a project than rehearsing a project.. or doing anything.

It was awful. She was an hour and fifteen minutes late, decided to cut the session short an hour and a half, brought me terribly prepped material(premixed tracks.. overdubbing what was already on the track when the intention was to _replace_ that stuff). Not to mention the material on the track and what was being added were total crap.

Then asked me for a CD at the end of one take, on a song. One take on a bunch of things, that sounded god awful, out of the pocket and out of tune. No tuning, mixing, or most importantly, re-recording(not that this might have done any good). Just "let me get a CD of that"

If I hadn't tripled my rate I'd have went home a lot less happy than I did, and the session probably would have been worse. I had a bad night and got screwed, but at least I got paid well for it.

Instead of outright denying work I am 100% sure will be aggravating, suck, and not bring anything of substance to the world, not posting rates gives me the opportunity to do it at a price that makes it worth it to me.

Which, is still lower than a lot in the area thanks to the deal I get on the main space I use.

[joel hamilton]

I think posting rates is a good idea.

I don't have a whole big rant for once.

It's just generally a good idea, unless you're a super high-end commercial studio.

I disagree.

I dont post my rates on the interweb because it is a case by case basis.I will tell anyone my rate, but I dont need to have it sitting on my website. There is no "rate" when you are doing an all in producer deal with a major label. there is a lump of money, that you need to spend wisely on musicians, studios, time, blah, blah..etc..etc.. But that has nothing to do with a "xxx per day" type of statement on a website. Conversely, I have done stuff with bands that simply could not have come up with my rate. For whatever reason (each is specific to the band) I really wanted to do it... like a group of 3 12 yr olds called "care bears on fire" that i was totally psyched about. Obviously they did not have a giant budget, to say the least. I came up through the punk/noise rock world, and I am 100% willing to talk to ANYONE about their needs and their budget, and i will be honest with them about what I can do for them with their budget. That is MUCH too personal to just post a number on a interweb site.

[fossiltooth]

I think posting rates is a good idea.

I don't have a whole big rant for once.

It's just generally a good idea, unless you're a super high-end commercial studio.

I disagree.

I dont post my rates on the interweb because it is a case by case basis.I will tell anyone my rate, but I dont need to have it sitting on my website. There is no "rate" when you are doing an all in producer deal with a major label. there is a lump of money, that you need to spend wisely on musicians, studios, time, blah, blah..etc..etc.. But that has nothing to do with a "xxx per day" type of statement on a website. Conversely, I have done stuff with bands that simply could not have come up with my rate. For whatever reason (each is specific to the band) I really wanted to do it... like a group of 3 12 yr olds called "care bears on fire" that i was totally psyched about. Obviously they did not have a giant budget, to say the least. I came up through the punk/noise rock world, and I am 100% willing to talk to ANYONE about their needs and their budget, and i will be honest with them about what I can do for them with their budget. That is MUCH too personal to just post a number on a interweb site.

That's a great argument, Joel. Stick with what works for you!

Personally, I don't feel that posting a basic rate paints anyone into a corner. I know that each situation is a little different, and most of my clients know that too.
My tracking rate is a set hourly rate. I can flex on it, but I feel people should know what ballpark to expect. Then again, maybe by the time I'm closer to your age and much further along in my career as well, I'll begin thinking more like you... so I'll defer to your judgment on this one for the next decade or so!

But, like you, my rate as a producer and as a mixer might be pretty different than my rate as a tracking engineer. It all depends on the project. These two services are normally provided at an all-in fee that is completely dependent on available budget, my "artistic" or social interest level in the project... and my ability to pay rent at that time! I don't find that clients expect my rate for these services to exactly mirror my hourly rate as a tracking engineer.

All I can say, is that when I work as a Producer, I'm a consumer of studio time... In these cases, as a client myself, I like to get a ballpark idea of the rate of an unfamiliar studio by looking at their site. Of course, at Studio G, you're not catering as much to folks like me, so that shouldn't matter to you.

I guess deciding whether to post rates is a lot like the rates themselves: Each case is a little different.

[joel hamilton]

I think posting rates is a good idea.

I don't have a whole big rant for once.

It's just generally a good idea, unless you're a super high-end commercial studio.

I disagree.

I dont post my rates on the interweb because it is a case by case basis.I will tell anyone my rate, but I dont need to have it sitting on my website. There is no "rate" when you are doing an all in producer deal with a major label. there is a lump of money, that you need to spend wisely on musicians, studios, time, blah, blah..etc..etc.. But that has nothing to do with a "xxx per day" type of statement on a website. Conversely, I have done stuff with bands that simply could not have come up with my rate. For whatever reason (each is specific to the band) I really wanted to do it... like a group of 3 12 yr olds called "care bears on fire" that i was totally psyched about. Obviously they did not have a giant budget, to say the least. I came up through the punk/noise rock world, and I am 100% willing to talk to ANYONE about their needs and their budget, and i will be honest with them about what I can do for them with their budget. That is MUCH too personal to just post a number on a interweb site.

That's a great argument, Joel. Stick with what works for you!

Personally, I don't feel that posting a basic rate lpaints anyone into a corner. I know that each situation is a little different, and most of my clients know that too.
My tracking rate is a set hourly rate. I can flex on it, but I feel people should know what ballpark to expect. Then again, maybe by the time I'm closer to your age and much further along in my career as well, I'll begin thinking more like you... so I'll defer to your judgment on this one for the next decade or so!

But, like you, my rate as a producer and as a mixer might be pretty different than my rate as a tracking engineer. It all depends on the project. These two services are normally provided at an all-in fee that is completely dependent on available budget, my "artistic" or social interest level in the project... and my ability to pay rent at that time!. I don't find that clients expect my rate for these services to exactly mirror my hourly rate as a tracking engineer.

All I can say, is that when I work as a Producer, I'm a consumer of studio time... In these cases, as a client myself, I like to get a ballpark idea of the rate of an unfamiliar studio by looking at their site. Of course, at Studio G, you're not catering as much to folks like me, so that shouldn't matter to you.

I guess posting rates is a lot like the rates themselves. Each case is a little different.

Justin,
I fully hear where you are coming from, man. I really do, which is why I used to post rates, but the more i would talk to bands that we were playing with or that I was hanging out with randomly, the more i would hear: "yeah, we just knew we couldnt afford to record with you. We looked at your website and...."
Some of these bands are bands I really wish i had recorded now. some became way bigger, and some are just really cool and I would have loved to have been involved with them, but posting the rate kept them from even asking me, thinking I wouldnt even want to talk to them. That bummed me out.
Whatevr works is the best policy, IMHO, so if we are both busy, and happy , and healthy, then we both win at music!

[@?,*???&?]

I think posting rates is a good idea.

I don't have a whole big rant for once.

It's just generally a good idea, unless you're a super high-end commercial studio.

I disagree.

I dont post my rates on the interweb because it is a case by case basis.I will tell anyone my rate, but I dont need to have it sitting on my website. There is no "rate" when you are doing an all in producer deal with a major label. there is a lump of money, that you need to spend wisely on musicians, studios, time, blah, blah..etc..etc.. But that has nothing to do with a "xxx per day" type of statement on a website. Conversely, I have done stuff with bands that simply could not have come up with my rate. For whatever reason (each is specific to the band) I really wanted to do it... like a group of 3 12 yr olds called "care bears on fire" that i was totally psyched about. Obviously they did not have a giant budget, to say the least. I came up through the punk/noise rock world, and I am 100% willing to talk to ANYONE about their needs and their budget, and i will be honest with them about what I can do for them with their budget. That is MUCH too personal to just post a number on a interweb site.

So true, but so idiosyncratic to major label projects. Running an independent facility many calls come simply because it is a studio and not because of a discography. So, while I agree with young Mr. Hamilton here in the professional marketplace, I disagree with with regard to the consumer marketplace. Consumers shop rate.

[chris harris]

I think posting rates is a good idea.

I don't have a whole big rant for once.

It's just generally a good idea, unless you're a super high-end commercial studio.

I disagree.

I dont post my rates on the interweb because it is a case by case basis.I will tell anyone my rate, but I dont need to have it sitting on my website. There is no "rate" when you are doing an all in producer deal with a major label. there is a lump of money, that you need to spend wisely on musicians, studios, time, blah, blah..etc..etc.. But that has nothing to do with a "xxx per day" type of statement on a website. Conversely, I have done stuff with bands that simply could not have come up with my rate. For whatever reason (each is specific to the band) I really wanted to do it... like a group of 3 12 yr olds called "care bears on fire" that i was totally psyched about. Obviously they did not have a giant budget, to say the least. I came up through the punk/noise rock world, and I am 100% willing to talk to ANYONE about their needs and their budget, and i will be honest with them about what I can do for them with their budget. That is MUCH too personal to just post a number on a interweb site.

So true, but so idiosyncratic to major label projects. Running an independent facility many calls come simply because it is a studio and not because of a discography. So, while I agree with young Mr. Hamilton here in the professional marketplace, I disagree with with regard to the consumer marketplace. Consumers shop rate.

I don't think you really even understand "young Mr. Hamilton"... Care Bears On Fire isn't exactly a major label band. And, the point that Joel is making is in no way "idiosyncratic to major labels"... It's perfectly applicable at many levels of recording..