DAMMMMMMMMMIT No Massey love for AU

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JohnDavisNYC
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Post by JohnDavisNYC » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:55 pm

yeah, because coming from a background of working for digi, that must have been one sweel company to work with... :roll:

audio units work great. other people seem to be able to get them to work, and have for years, including small companies like digital fishphones, who have ported all their VSTs over to AU with seemingly no problems.

whatever. i am bummed and it smells like a cop out.

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Post by chris harris » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:47 pm

yeah... this has nothing to do with Apple! Are you really trying to tell me that only big, corporate software companies are making AU plugs? B.S.

the funny thing is, his attitude is almost exactly the same as the other cool indie plugin developer who was recently bitching and moaning about the new VST3 spec. jeez... I'm really sorry that you're gonna have to do some hard work to port your plugs. But, isn't that how it's supposed to work? Isn't all that hard work the reason that you can kick back and get payed over and over for what are essentially digital copies of your hard work?

I appreciate independent programmers who make cool tools. And, there's plenty of reasons to demonize some of these corporations. But, don't blame Apple or Steinberg because you can't figure out how to port your shit. Other (apparently better programmers) have managed to do it.

Maybe this should serve to illustrate why some plugins cost so much money. There is a lot that goes into making them and making them good.

This does suck, though... I've heard so many good things about these plugs. It's too bad he doesn't have the resources to expand outside the digidesign market. I'd love to try some VST versions if he can figure out how to port them.

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Post by ledogboy » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:56 pm

As a Digi HD user, I don't have a horse in this race. But one of the things that has attracted folks (especially the Tape Op crowd) to the Massey plugs is the low cost. To provide that low cost, the man has zero staff. Perhaps if he were charging more standard prices (ie: Waves, McDSP, URS, etc.) he could afford the necessary overhead to expand into new markets. Doing things on a small scale, or DIY is awesome, but there are often inherent limitations. My $.02. Cheers,
Ryan

ps. As a PT user, the quality/price point of the Massey plugs (cheap and awesome) has made me seriously consider leaving Waves (kinda expensive but good) behind.

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Post by touched1 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:30 pm

This is disappointing.
I was really looking forward to these.

I agree, he appears to have thrown in the towel too easily. LOTS of other small indie plug makers port to AU. They gripe about it, sure. I totally believe everything he says and I'd be frustrated too. But other small developers manage to get it done.

The brief post on his site is clearly one of exhausted frustration. I can't blame him. I'd want to bag on this too...

I hope he reconsiders. There are a whole lot of us who ain't switching to Pro Tools anytime soon.

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Post by soundandform » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:28 pm

Hey guys,

Sorry for the disappointment and anger.

My decision is based on something much more fundamental than the issue of a bug or a laundry list of complaints. Yes, I could certainly work through this crash, if given the time, and some research from the Logic team. (Which, by the way, seems to be due to me picking the "wrong" development path of Cocoa over Carbon.)

I agree, each individual bullet point is not hugely significant in itself, but all my experiences build up to a much larger statement on the responsiveness of Apple.

Specifically, I feel it is my obligation to provide the absolute most bug-free software possible and to respond as timely as possible when it is found not to be. As some of the current Pro Tools users know, I've often turned around bug fixes in a matter of hours, so that my customers could then complete their mixes for their clients. This chain of responsibility affects everyone and everyone's personal and financial well-being.

And, if I foresee Apple being an impediment to that personal contract between me and the customer, then it is my responsibility to not enter into a financial agreement that I know I might not be able to uphold to the best of its terms. Other people may have differing impressions on Apple's support level. But, frankly, someone else's opinion has absolutely nothing to do with my own requirement to provide the highest-caliber software and support to my customers, an endeavor which affects me every waking moment of the day.

If you'd like to discuss personally, please feel free to contact me on my home phone line: +1-415-401-8129

Thanks,
Steven Massey
Massey Plugins Inc.

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Post by touched1 » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:48 pm

Wow,
thanks for chiming in here Steven.

No anger here. Just disappointment. I've heard and read nothing but great things about your plugs. And looked forward to the AU ports Specifically of the Tape Head and Mastering Limiter. A VST port would also be good for me (and others!).

I use Ableton Live for performance and creative purposes, and Logic (recently migrated from Cubase) and Peak for straight forward DAW tasks. My soundcard of choice is Metric Halo 2882. Like others in this thread, and many people I know, I won't be using Pro Tools in the foreseeable future.

You are certainly not the only developer I have seen frustrated by Apple over Audio Units. I know everyone here respects your position. Being a small operation fighting an uphill battle has to suck. Like I said, I don't blame you for throwing in the towel. I just wish you hadn't.

It's a dumb question, but how extensively have you chatted with other developers about this? What can we do to coax you back into working on this?

Thanks again for chiming in here. Very cool of you to step in and give your personal 2 cents.

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Post by i am monster face » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:10 pm


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wedge
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Post by wedge » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:10 pm

From the Massey website:

"The Audio Units porting project has been terminated."

Kinda sounds like lawyer-talk to me. As if he was forced by legal pressure to do this...

But since he's been very forthcoming in other forums, I guess not...

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Post by inverseroom » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:57 am

wedge wrote:From the Massey website:

"The Audio Units porting project has been terminated."

Kinda sounds like lawyer-talk to me. As if he was forced by legal pressure to do this...

But since he's been very forthcoming in other forums, I guess not...
He was forthcoming in this one, too.

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Post by Jeff White » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:23 am

I honestly can understand people's disappointment, as Steven's plug-ins have a great reputation, however, the anger, the childishness, etc that I've seen across various messageboards regarding Steven's decision to terminate this project is a bit much.

Steven is a one man show. He likes to keep it this way so that he can keep his programming in check and help his customers out with excellent support. I 100% see where he is coming from in regards to losing his business model as a result of porting things to AU. And it seems that remaining honest and providing excellent customer service for an excellent product is this business model, which is kind of rare these days. Why should he compromise this when he has a good thing going as RTAS only right now?

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wedge
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Post by wedge » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:10 am

ipressrecord wrote:the anger, the childishness, etc that I've seen across various messageboards regarding Steven's decision to terminate this project is a bit much.
I think the emotional intensity of the reaction is based upon two things:

1) They're excellent plugins that have a great reputation, and everyone wants a shot at using them on their platform. Him saying that AU was on the way, and then deciding not to do it, only adds salt to any disappointment.

2) His terse verbiage on his website.

"The Audio Units porting project has been terminated."

Terminated means "dead". As in, it's NEVER going to happen. Yanking hopeful, expectant people from "it's on it's way!" to "it's never going to happen", in one short, inexplicable sentence, creates emotional reaction.

He's fleshed out his reasons in other forums, so we now know that he's royally pissed at Apple.

But still, you could smell Massey's anger a mile away when reading that, and without further explanation, an Apple AU user might take that brush-off personally...

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Post by jwnc » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:08 pm

No offense why would wouldn't he support VST on Mac and PC since there is a ton more users then AU (across both platforms?) and there are a ton of people that could have helped him port it.

Just me though..
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Post by Crandall1 » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:03 am

For what it's worth, I absolutely understand Steven's decision. We've experienced ongoing issues with AU since the day we decided to release in that format. Everything he says in his initial GS post is absolutely true. What he _didn't_ discover, because he didn't have to live through Apple's incessant revving, is how often they break everything, and for that he should be truly thankful.

Now, that said, there are some misconceptions voiced in the thread that I think should be addressed. The most common one is that VST is a bigger market than AU. This is untrue; while there are more VST users, most of them rely on free plugins (of which there are far more on VST PC side, obviously.) The actual split in paying customers, in our experience, is about 50/50 AU to VST.

Another common misconception is that AU is "better" in some way than VST. If you're a cross-platform developer this is moot, as you would have to fork your code to take advantage of anything else AU had to offer. This is, of course, stupid.

The key thing to understand is that, as a small indie developer, you make your money releasing new products. If I was forced to give an estimate, I'd say that we spend about 6 months of every year doing R&D, and the other 6 months either porting to AU or trying to figure out why AU is broken (again.) If we didn't have to spend half our time, and I'm not exaggerating that in the slightest, dealing with AU, we would logically release more or better (or both) plugins. This is a simple fact of resource allocation, and not the result of preferring one platform over another.

But it comes to this: the reason we're able to release AU at all is that we've been doing it since the AU kit was stable (and what a laughable term that is in this context) and have been able to roll with the punches. Someone jumping in to AU now (e.g. Steven) simply isn't going to have the knowledge base to deal with the different compiler settings (and even which version of Xcode you have to use) to build a UB AU that will absolutely work in Logic, DP, and Live. This information isn't written down anywhere, to the best of my knowledge. The people at Apple that are supposed to answer questions of this sort very rarely do, and the documentation might as well be written for something else entirely, because it bears no resemblance whatsoever to what is actually included in the kit.

Now, all that said, one could say "well, Developer X cowboy'd up and did it. Why can't you?" In fact, several did. But the simple fact is that in a situation like Steven's (which I thoroughly understand, for obvious reasons) it is incredibly difficult to see why it is worth the trouble. And believe me when I say that it is a _lot_ of trouble. This business isn't lucrative enough to be worth doing if you're not having a good time, and if Steven enjoys doing PT plugs and hates doing AU, and he can already pay his rent, then I say "good show" and leave it at that. Complaining that he doesn't release AU is like complaining that you can't play CDs in your 8 track deck. You bought the fucking thing with knowledge aforethought, right? Go get a CD player.
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Post by RodC » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:07 am

Thanks for the info Chris, and welcome to the board.
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Post by inverseroom » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:26 am

RodC wrote:Thanks for the info Chris, and welcome to the board.
+1

FWIW, I think the AD/Massey model of coding and selling plugins is refreshingly sane.

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