Recording Bach Suites for Unaccompanied Cello

[Tabnetic]

Hey fellow tape-oppers:

I am fortunate to have the opportunity to record the 6 suites for cello by our homeboy J.S. Bach this summer.

I am putting together a "dream gear list" for this mobile recording venture. The recording will be in a church in Spain, and I want to assemble a gear list to either save up for, or to at least work off of.

My initial ideas are something in the family of DPA or Earthworks for mics closer in, and probably will want to use a pair of ribbons as well in a Blumlein arrangement a bit further back in the church.

As far as preamps go, Milennia comes to mind, though DAV might have to do the trick for portability sake. Converters are probably going to have to be my Metric Halo 2882 (again, a portable recording venture here) unless someone can recommend something similar that is better.



Any suggestions? I have never really done a classical recording of such magnitude, and while there isn't much pressure as it's a good friend who's playing cello, I want to really do as superb a job as possible for him.

I'm in the process of building an API rack, though I am guessing that the API pre's are probably a no-no for classical, right? Or wrong?


thanks in advance!



Tab

p.s. if you want to hear some of what the suites sound like, check out the wiki page here (you gotta copy paste as the hyperlink won't generate for some reason):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Suit ... C_BWV_1007

[joelpatterson]

Smallish world! I recorded the self-same gargantuan series of Bach suites a couple years ago, with a cello legend who played it all from memory!

The bad news: he'd waited maybe ten or twenty years too long to do the project. His tunings were rich and boisterous and thrilling-- but when he started "playing," his intonation during the music proper was ghastly, just a whole shake-your-head-back-and-forth-slowly mess.

I used a tube mic, front and center, maybe three feet off the ground and three feet infront of him, with some kind of SDC eight or ten feet back?

It was all for naught-- his son directed me through a very painful process of slaving over patching all the multiple takes into some semblence of worthwhileness. Rumor had it some Korean record company was interested. The six CDs have sat gathering dust on my shelf ever since. How the mighty are fallen, and what a sad spectacle when they do.

[LeedyGuy]

What a fantastic set of pieces. I've heard horror stories from grad school composition majors who have had to a whole roman numeral analysis of the whole thing. Ouch.

[Cellotron]

I'd avoid using ribbon mics for the distant ambience - as most likely they'll won't give enough definition and they have the potential to add too much noise - to me this is where a pair of brighter, accurate and clean omni SDC's like the Earthworks would work the best. Put these as far back as you need to in order to get a nice reverberation with - but make sure you don't place them in a place where it picks up things like street noise or other distracting sounds.

Personally I'd go with a warmer LDC as the main mic. The Microtech Geffell MT71 has been one of my favorites for this purpose to date - but I've gotten good results with things like Neumann FET47 / 67 / 87, even Shure KSM-44 or AudioTechnica AT4047 (for when doing it on the "cheap"). If you want a brighter more focused sound then an SDC like Schoeps, DPA, B&K, Neumann KM84 all work well - it's just to date I've usually preferred my own instruments sound when an LDC was used.

As a starting position I'd put it about 3 feet out at bridge level and pointing to the bridge (not to the F-hole) slightly on the treble (A-string) side - and then adjust to taste. Remember - distance is your friend when recording strings!! Getting in close usually doesn't get rewarded - instead it often just picks up more bow noise and unwanted resonances. The thing to do though is to not get too distant that you start getting an unfocused sound - so it's kind of a balancing act with this.

If you wanted to you could experiment an M/S pair placed in this position to give you a wide image - but generally this isn't necessary.

As far as mic pre's - some here will call me crazy - but I actually prefer the top of the Grace Design line over the Millenia pres (although the Millenias are indeed found on tons of classical sessions). John Hardy might be a good option as well. Also - in answer to your question a good bit of mystring quartet's last CD was recorded with vintage API pres and aside from some slight additional noise from using them I was pretty happy with the results - so, yeah - it ain't usual - but it can be done.

As far as converters - Metric Halo should do you just fine - unless you want to borrow/rent some slightly higher end things like Mytek, Lavry, or DAD as other options.

The Suites are enormously demanding on the player - so make sure you capture everything played and have plenty of hard drive space for multiple takes - make sure you keep the player relaxed by keeping yourself and the recording process as "transparent" as you can - keep a smile on (even if you're dealing with technical challenges yourself) and be supportive and uncritical (unless you are asked your opinion regarding an issue - in which case polite but honest feedback can be appreciated) during takes. It really helps for the player to not feel any negative "vibes" going on during the recording!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Huntlabs]

I record a lot of classical guitar, live concerts in a noisy hall. Never had the opportunity to record cello, I'd like to. Should be fun for you. I use a pair of Hamptone Mics that have K-47 caps, very much like Neuman U47's. They really sound nice. There can be a bit of upper mids that need to be rolled down and I usually bump up the low end just a touch.

I place the two mics close, 4-5 feet in front of the player. I keep them in cardiod and close to limit crowd noise and audience noise. (I'd rather use fig 8 - it has a better tonal balance for classical.) This distance doesn't take the room environment in and I really don't want it to. The tracks themselves need some reverb to open them back up and I use Altiverb.

For a preamp I use an older, 1st generation, Great River. I forget the exact number and it isn't labeled. I think it is a fairly colorful pre and it emphasizes the highs a bit. I've tried using the stock Digi 003 pres and a Hamptone Tube Pre but the Great River works the best.

You will have more freedom with mic placement. Personally I wouldn't get too far away from your source for the direct sound. 6-7 feet, perhaps? Experiment. I hear a lot of classical guitar recordings where the mics are way back to "capture the room" and all the "great natural reverb". Well to me they sound mushy, muddy, cluttered, not articulate. It sounds like someone playing at the other end of a reverberant room. Pure crap. My $.02

I'd suggest two LDC mics for a stereo pair. A mono or Stereo LDC mic further back to catch the "room". Pic your pre after you pick your mics. Try them out and see what sounds good. Learn them and how they will sound.

Will you have a studio with monitors to see how it sounds when you are over there? Headphones suck for this purpose and I don't want you to be disappointed on your return. Good luck.

[Tabnetic]

Wow! Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. I've got a lot to consider.


Basically, I think that I might be in a situation where DPA's might work. I was planning on trying to get 4 or 6 mics recorded discreetly, and see about what works (and how) when it comes to mixing. Crowd noise won't be a consideration as we will be alone in the church.

I am liking the prospect of using a FET 47 Neumann as the main mic, and perhaps a pair of DPA's on high stands a few feet further back? But is the consensus that a card pair is better than omni pair for this? Or vice versa? My instinct tells me that a coincident array would be best, as in ORTF, XY, or similar, but does anyone think a spaced pair would be more appropriate?

I would probably want to just use them as ambience, and perhaps as my 4th mic a DPA (or B&K) over the player's shoulder (keeping phase considerations in mind of course!) but a little further back to have the option of more finger-talk/character if we wanted some down the line.

As far as preamps go, if milennia are an option they are certainly a rental as $5k for a pre just won't be possible. Though Cellotron, your story about API sounds encouraging! We would probably do a test session here in NYC with a few pres and do some playback and decide what sound we liked best.

@Huntlabs: No, I don't think i will have decent monitors there, I was planning on carting over my Sennheiser HD600's for playback monitoring, and my Sony 7506's or Senheisser HD280s for tracking monitoring.


What about compression? Should I completely avoid compressing to tape? Or do I need to look into something like a Tube Tech...or maybe more in the direction of a Pendulum?


As far as the Metric Halo for converters, I have had a great experience with them so far, and I think that since it's something I already own (and can cut down on costs) any signal chain where Metric Halo is my "weakest link" is a dream in my book. I do like Mytek, but would rather spend out budget (or rental) on Mics, Pres, in that order. Oh, and Paella & Tempranillo too. Gotta have that!

Thanks again, looking forward to more insights!


Tab

[drumsound]

Consider an M/S pair for ambience.

[Cellotron]

Wow! Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. I've got a lot to consider.


Basically, I think that I might be in a situation where DPA's might work. I was planning on trying to get 4 or 6 mics recorded discreetly, and see about what works (and how) when it comes to mixing. Crowd noise won't be a consideration as we will be alone in the church.

I am liking the prospect of using a FET 47 Neumann as the main mic, and perhaps a pair of DPA's on high stands a few feet further back? But is the consensus that a card pair is better than omni pair for this? Or vice versa? My instinct tells me that a coincident array would be best, as in ORTF, XY, or similar, but does anyone think a spaced pair would be more appropriate?

I would probably want to just use them as ambience, and perhaps as my 4th mic a DPA (or B&K) over the player's shoulder (keeping phase considerations in mind of course!) but a little further back to have the option of more finger-talk/character if we wanted some down the line.

I don't really like the over the shoulder thing for a baroque recording because the resulting image has the potential to be unnatural sounding if you bring it up in the mix - plus the placement can possibly be distracting for the player.

Personally if you want to go with multiple micing options I'd do a single "close" mic about 2 - 3 feet off the bridge, then an M/S pair facing the performer about 8 - 10 feet back - and then spaced/xy/ortf (choose your poison) omni's even farther back just to pick up the natural reverberation to be mixed in to taste.

What about compression? Should I completely avoid compressing to tape?

Yes - there's absolutely no reason to compress solo cello during tracking. (you're going to digital, right - not to "tape"?) Give a run through of the most fortissimo sections and give yourself headroom.

Or do I need to look into something like a Tube Tech...or maybe more in the direction of a Pendulum?

No, no and no. If you need to compress for some reason (and with solo cello recordings of baroque music it is very rare to do that!) that can be much better handled during mixdown or mastering.

As far as the Metric Halo for converters, I have had a great experience with them so far, and I think that since it's something I already own (and can cut down on costs) any signal chain where Metric Halo is my "weakest link" is a dream in my book. I do like Mytek, but would rather spend out budget (or rental) on Mics, Pres, in that order. Oh, and Paella & Tempranillo too. Gotta have that!

I agree that the Metric Halo's will do just fine for you and that converter rental should be lower in priority than other things (including Paella y vino tinto!)

Where in Spain are you going to be? I was in Vigo/Madrid/Barcelona/Roses/Figueres last June - would love to go back.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Cellotron]

Consider an M/S pair for ambience.

Good advice as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Professor]

When I record cello or other strings, I like to get in close, and I like to add complimentary colors with the mics. DPAs and Earthworks would be way down the list of likely contenders. Not that they are bad, but they are meant to be fairly sterile, and especially with the Earthworks, they fair better on larger ensembles at higher volume levels.
I've put U-67s on cello and bass, and probably on violin & viola too for that matter. I've also used TLM-193s, maybe even TLM-103s, would love to use U-89s, wouldn't mind C-414 TLIIs, etc. Large diaphragm condensers up close will definitely be your friend, and tubes might be even more so, depending on the instrument. Oh, and I've certainly used ribbons on all of those instruments as well, and something like that stereo ribbon from AEA would be way up on the list of possible contenders.
As for placement, it depends a lot on personal taste. Mine leans towards the sound of being up close by the instruments in a large space. But I also like stereo action where I can get it. So I would probably put a Mid/Side pair up close as my primary set, then maybe a pair of omnis with a compatible tone back and out a little more, like a Decca Tree arrangement but with the M/S up front. Ron Streicher (of AEA, the Aspen Music Festival, etc.) uses this kind of rig all the time, and the result is wonderfully flexible in mix down. You get a mono center, or an M/S decode close mic, the omni out-riggers as needed, and the ability to do a really fantastic surround mix.
In resonant venues, I've found that I don't move out nearly as far as you would think. I've tried it often enough with the expected outcomes of muddiness, too much ambience, lack of focus, no more stereo imgaing. And of course, it's because I didn't realize that there is a 'reverberation radius' in every space - the point where you've moved far enough away that the direct sound is equal to or lower than the reflected sound in the space. Once that threshold is crossed, it doesn't much matter how far away the mic is. And of course, if you use omnis as the distant mics, that radius shows up faster because you're picking up more reflected sounds anyway by a factor of 1.7:1 vs. a cardioid. (That is, a cardioid at 17' should sound like an omni at 10' for those unfamiliar.)

So yeah, that's my quick (albeit verbose) thoughts on it. Don't be afraid of the colors of mics. Nor preamps either, those APIs may be just fine. I'm a huge fan of Grace Design preamps, and love my 801s like nothing else, and use those when the mic gets it right and just needs the gain. But a preamp with a little character can help an 'almost there' mic land right on the money. If you rent some Millenias or Grace (or True, etc.) you should still plan to bring along the APIs.

-Jeremy