are there any engineers/producers who 'dont' use compression

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generichumanperson
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are there any engineers/producers who 'dont' use compression

Post by generichumanperson » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am

Im just wondering because I myself don't like using it, although I haven't really up to this point, since I have only been recording guitar/vocals/bass and not live drums, but I'm wondering if its possible to just rarely use compression or use it very little. I'm pretty sure I read in some article, I can't remember what it was from of course, where some engineer said he never uses compression to mix or something like that.

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Bob Womack
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Post by Bob Womack » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:38 pm

I use very little compression. I do however, use quite a bit of automation for leveling tracks, because I can use my ears to adjust the automation so that you can't hear pumping and sucking. I do use high-threshold limiting to take care of transients that can limit headroom and I do use compression to level out bass guitar.

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Post by joel hamilton » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:46 pm

I dont use compression on anything that doesnt sound better when I do use it.

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:04 pm

some of my favorite records sound like there's very little compression used:

'the bed is in the ocean' by karate
'laughing stock' and 'spirit of eden' by the much-discussed talk talk
any of the shellac records

i myself tend to use lots. hopefully in a pleasant manner. i like compression.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:08 pm

sure, you CAN make good recordings without compression. but, that's not a good excuse to not even learn how to use it properly.

I'm of the opinion that it's pretty ridiculous to take a hard line position against any tool.

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Post by Brett Siler » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:31 pm

Dont be scared of compression! Yeah some people have gone crazy with it, but it doesn't mean its bad. If you eat too many carrots your skin could turn yellow/orange. That doesn't mean the carrots are bad just cut back on the carrots and eat some broccoli.

You really should get to know how to use one, don't let faceless message board goons scare you away. There are plenty of great topics on here about how to uses a compressor, just do a search. Also there is a great chapter about using compression, how it works and how it will affect sound in the book, Mixing With Your Mind.
Last edited by Brett Siler on Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:40 pm

also remember... once using compression clicks, it clicks. you won't always struggle with it. and, once it clicks, you can make a more informed decision about whether or not to use it.

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Post by fossiltooth » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:41 pm

joel hamilton wrote:I dont use compression on anything that doesnt sound better when I do use it.
Brilliant! I think Joel is well on his way to become the Yogi Bera of recording. Awesome.
InvalidInk wrote:Dont be scared of compression! Yeah some people have gone crazy with it, but it does mean its bad. If you eat too many carrots your skin could turn yellow/orange. That doesn't mean the carrots are bad just cut back on the carrots and eat some broccoli.

You really should get to know how to use one, don't let faceless message board goons scare you away. There are plenty of great topics on here about how to uses a compressor, just do a search. Also there is a great chapter about using compression, how it works and how it will affect sound in the book, Mixing With Your Mind.
I agree here as well.

--

Sometimes sh*t just sounds better compressed. But, every sound is different. Certain styles of production mandate that you avoid compression. Others demand to be compressed.

I like compression. However, I tend to avoid compression when I'm tracking... I'd rather work with players to help them develop their dynamic control. It's a gift that gives forever... much like helping groove-challenged players understand their relationship with the beat. It's something they can begin to really learn in an afternoon, and once they "get it" it's like they just took on extra year worth of lessons! They really light up... It's a beautiful thing. If I'm tracking with compression it's usually for one of three reasons:
1) It's a bass. (maybe a little)
2) It's a vocal. (maybe a little)
3) It's a clear aesthetic choice, and it really helps establish a bold and crucial tone. (maybe a lot!)


But that's just my taste. I like to capture the player's intent as well as I can before I decide to butcher it with my dirty tools! But, that's just my way.

If you want to hear some tunes that are obsessed with brutalizing compressors in a very simple way for aesthetics alone, put on almost anything by sparklehorse! (I only own the first and last albums. Someone tell me if I'm off-base here.) If you're not sure you know what compression sounds like, put on the track "Weird Sisters" off their first album.... or "Don't Take My Sunshine" the first track off of their newest album. That much audible compression is a personal aesthetic choice. It's very intentional.

(Hey Joel, based on your experience with the band, is there a lot of compression going in, or are those kinds of choices made later on?)

Additionally, if you listen to any major label rock record, that "sound" is essentially the effect of heavy-handed compression and eq that tries to be somewhat transparent (instead of trying to be obvious, like a hyper-compressed sparklehorse track).

It's the same on the indie side of things as well. If you want to make a record that sounds like "23" or "Transatlanticism" it's going to involve assloads of compression. But, you should listen to "She Said, She Said" by the Beatles as well. That's also the sound of compression. Assloads of compression. Different vibe, right? Still, assloads of compression. Bill Evans? Yo Yo Ma? Early Tom Waits? Much less compression. It's all about taste and aesthetics. There is no "wrong". There is only "good" and "suck". Only one person has the final call as to which is which: whoever's listening.
Last edited by fossiltooth on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Professor » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:03 pm

I started reading Bruce Swedien's "Make Mine Music" a few weeks ago, and haven't been able to get back to it in a while to finish, but I seem to recall that he mentioned not recording with compression if he could help it. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the tracks would have been mixed and/or mastered without compression, but he would prefer to record his tracks in stereo and with no compression.

I personally never track with compression because I want the options later. But I also know that I can't really deliver a product with 50-60dB of dynamic range because it could only really be heard properly in very controlled environments. My target range, if I were to define one per se, would be around 25-30dB for classical projects, about 20-25dB for jazz projects and about 15-20dB for rock projects. Obviously that varies quite a lot, and I don't really measure the range closely or follow any kind of chart, but it's a pretty good estimate.
Any range wider than that, and you'll have listeners forced to turn up and turn down the level on their own... and that just pissed them off.

Oh, and I also recall someone once equating the compressor for the audio engineer to the sustain pedal for the piano. I liked that equivalency, especially since I recall my piano instructor at the conservatory describing the pedal and the 'heart & soul' of the piano.

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Post by Cojonesonasteek » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:09 pm

I recall that John McBride recorded and mixed Martina's last record with only a single use of mix bus compression out of 22 cuts, and none during tracking.

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Post by Cellotron » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:22 pm

Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade makes it an absolute dogmatic rule not to use any compression whatsoever. He tracks via Josephson sdc's & modded Crown PZM mics going to 4 custom made battery powered pre-amps that go directly to the tape heads of his highly modded Sony TC-880 1/4" 15ips 2-track. Not only does he not use any compression - he doesn't overdub or use a mixing board, doesn't use nr or eq, and doesn't add additional reverb or processing (beyond the ambience recorded from the room) - and makes sure things are mastered just as flat transfers.

Pierre's quite a character - in his earlier career he designed aircraft for the military - and he sells a lot of snake oil type "audiophile tweaks" besides running his own label to release his purist recordings - he'd definitely make a great TapeOp interview subject.

Anyway - the albums he records actually sound very good! - well worth checking out - http://www.mapleshaderecords.com

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Post by caffiend2049 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:47 pm

I used to avoid compression like the plague, most likely because I had very little sense of what I was trying to do with it. It just seemed to make everything worse.

Eventually, I started to get a handle on things - but for a while it was like using a hammer when I should have had a wrench. I could smash some unruly dynamics or go for way over the top effects and that was about it.

While taking a class offered locally by some studio owners and professors - it finally clicked. I could almost see the lightbulb popping on over my head - "so THAT's what I need to be listening for"

Strange as it was, I knew technically what should be happening - but it took standing in the stereo field of a pair of Swans while watching exactly what the engineer was doing for my ears to recognize the changes.
Almost immediately I sprung for some better monitors and now, while I'd hardly say I am a master of the art, I have a much better feel for the possibilities available.

I know some mixing folks eschew "compression" but most of these same people utilize techniques to accomplish a similar effect (fader riding w/ limiting as described above, etc....)

I still don't use much on the way in - aside from bass and possibly a touch on drum OHs. But really, if you hope to ever record and or mix a song that sounds anything like a rock or pop tune that's been released in the last 30 or 40 years, getting a good grip on the ability to use a compressor is key.
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Post by akg414 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:40 pm

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Post by rwc » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:34 pm

If it's not making it better, I don't use it.

If it makes it sound better, I use it.

I started out recording with that whole "never use compression/EQ" thing, stay true to the source. like an animal rights activist or something. but eating meat kicks ass, and so does using compression. it's silly to never, or always do something, just because. it takes the fun out of audio. I was retarded for having that philosophy, and it sure doesn't apply to my present work.

I like getting what goes on in my head on the finished product. what goes on in my head is sometimes, unprocessed sound. sometimes, it's sound manipulated and beaten down until it does what I tell it.
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Post by HeavyHand » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:43 pm

i remember reading that the average dynamic range for current rock singles is only 6 dB. thats totally out of control. thankfully music exists outside of the "singles" realm.

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