Primary monitors??? (not mixcubes)

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AnalogousGumdropDecoder
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Primary monitors??? (not mixcubes)

Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:51 pm

I am looking for a pair of main studio monitors. I will probably buy a pair of Avantone mixcubes later for reference, but first I need something that I can EQ bass on and such. Don't know much (read: ANYTHING) about monitor makes and models (although I understand the functions they should provide) - have had several recommendations (Yamahas, KRKs, JBLs, Genelec, Adam, Tapco), but I really don't understand what sets all of these things apart and why I may or may not want to drop an extra thousand dollars on one monitor versus another. I also don't have a lot of options in the way of "going to a store and trying out," so I want to have things a little narrowed down before I do anything rash like drive to Nashville or Atlanta. My budget hasn't really been pinned down exactly , but I don't want a Yugo. That being said, I might not be able to afford a Rolls or even a Caddy... I just want the most bang for my buck in terms of clarity and translation. What am I looking for???
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Re: Primary monitors??? (not mixcubes)

Post by kayagum » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:15 pm

AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote: What am I looking for???
Fiberglass! :D


Before you spend a grand on monitors, make sure your room is properly bass trapped and acoustically balanced. Without that, it doesn't matter what you use for monitors.

Seriously!

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Post by rwc » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:29 pm

Thiel CS3.6

once you hear everything, as it is really there, you'll never go back. none of that "half the story" crap you get with tannoys, genelecs, mackies, or ns10s byc comparison. you will hear everything, as it is, and some stuff you never even knew was there on every other monitor you used.

they're a revelation, for real.

I'm highly opinionated btw.
Last edited by rwc on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Primary monitors??? (not mixcubes)

Post by Nick Sevilla » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:05 am

AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote:I am looking for a pair of main studio monitors. I will probably buy a pair of Avantone mixcubes later for reference, but first I need something that I can EQ bass on and such. Don't know much (read: ANYTHING) about monitor makes and models (although I understand the functions they should provide) - have had several recommendations (Yamahas, KRKs, JBLs, Genelec, Adam, Tapco), but I really don't understand what sets all of these things apart and why I may or may not want to drop an extra thousand dollars on one monitor versus another. I also don't have a lot of options in the way of "going to a store and trying out," so I want to have things a little narrowed down before I do anything rash like drive to Nashville or Atlanta. My budget hasn't really been pinned down exactly , but I don't want a Yugo. That being said, I might not be able to afford a Rolls or even a Caddy... I just want the most bang for my buck in terms of clarity and translation. What am I looking for???
JBL LSR 4328.

And, make SURE your room is treated acoustically first.

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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:28 am

Yeah I've been reading up on acoustic treatments, I'm just trying to figure out what I need to invest in monitor wise.
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Post by Professor » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:42 pm

Since the plan is to track, edit, mix & master on your own on these speakers it makes sense to get the speakers with the widest & flattest frequency response you can find. Since you want to do that and stay within the price range of a couple hundred bucks, it's probably a good idea to skip the mixcubes - those are a cute add-on second pair, not a primary pair, and they are just for a lowest common denominator, to see how the stuff sounds on an AM radio, they aren't meant for mixing & mastering.
What is a good bet for the money you're trying to spend is to get a cheap used power amp, maybe from a home stereo or something, and a set of passive pro or home hifi speakers. You can get more amplifier power for less money at the local pawn shop picking off an old Pioneer, Denon or Sony ES receiver for under $50. Then you can put the money towards a set of B&W DM-602 speakers, or maybe a set of Tannoy Reveals, or an older set of passive JBLs.
You will still probably need to make the drive to Mephis or Nashville to hear some speakers in person, but if you check online you can line up a few dealers that you want to hit to listen to speakers before you get in the car. But you need something that will expose what is really happening at the top and bottom of your mixes.

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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:18 pm

Thanks prof! If Jesus were an engineer who frequented a message board, then he might possibly eerily resemble you. But I'm making the assumption that you're European and have a beard.
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Post by Bob Womack » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:42 pm

The trick with monitors is not so much what they sound like, it is how they cause you to mix.

Part of that is familiarity with a set of monitors, and that demands an investment of time, mixes, and comparison on other systems. I've mixed on a few systems in my years, and have settled on a couple of favorites. I have the luxury of working in a particular control room that has my favorite monitors probably 95% of the time. I've mixed and mastered projects on these and feel like I have a "handle" on my performance and the quality of the projects I put out.

One of the best places you can go for discussion of large-format monitors is The Lansing Heritage (JBL) Forum. You'd be amazed what is floating around for pennies on the dollar since studios have begun bailing out. I picked up a mint pair of $3800 UREI 811C full-sized monitors for $100, for instance, from a studio that had converted to Genlecs and couldn't find an immediate buyer for their older monitors. In another transaction, I picked up a pair of JBL 4411 medium-sized monitors in excellent mechanical shape for $50.

By the way, I mix on small format monitors after recording and EQing on the large monitors. I master on the large monitors but compare on several other monitors I have available.

Take care,

Bob
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Post by themagicmanmdt » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:13 pm

rwc wrote:Thiel CS3.6

once you hear everything, as it is really there, you'll never go back. none of that "half the story" crap you get with tannoys, genelecs, mackies, or ns10s byc comparison. you will hear everything, as it is, and some stuff you never even knew was there on every other monitor you used.

they're a revelation, for real.

I'm highly opinionated btw.
I disagree. I went to a mastering house with such a setup, and when I was going in, I had a few things to address, mostly with EQ, but upon initial playback, I really didn't feel that the problem was there.

The better the system is, the more it makes everything ELSE sound great, too. And, it made me indecisive, and even had me go BACK into the MH to adjust it some more. And, on those speakers, it didn't feel like much at all - just another 'flavor' - but it was crucial for everything else.

I like monitors that have a *flavor*, and you have to understand them and use them. Just like mics. Different studios have different sounds for that reason too - their monitoring situation. Honestly, I wouldn't want that to go away.
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Post by Professor » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:41 am

AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote:Thanks prof! If Jesus were an engineer who frequented a message board, then he might possibly eerily resemble you. But I'm making the assumption that you're European and have a beard.
I always wanted to play Jesus in an Easter pageant or something, but I cut my hair and gained a little too much weight... and it's a goatee, not a full beard... and I'm quite American.

-J

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Post by rwc » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:28 am

themagicmanmdt wrote:
rwc wrote:Thiel CS3.6

once you hear everything, as it is really there, you'll never go back. none of that "half the story" crap you get with tannoys, genelecs, mackies, or ns10s byc comparison. you will hear everything, as it is, and some stuff you never even knew was there on every other monitor you used.

they're a revelation, for real.

I'm highly opinionated btw.
I disagree. I went to a mastering house with such a setup, and when I was going in, I had a few things to address, mostly with EQ, but upon initial playback, I really didn't feel that the problem was there.

The better the system is, the more it makes everything ELSE sound great, too. And, it made me indecisive, and even had me go BACK into the MH to adjust it some more. And, on those speakers, it didn't feel like much at all - just another 'flavor' - but it was crucial for everything else.

I like monitors that have a *flavor*, and you have to understand them and use them. Just like mics. Different studios have different sounds for that reason too - their monitoring situation. Honestly, I wouldn't want that to go away.
maybe I'm nuts but I thought the exact opposite. never have I had a system that made so much of what I listen to sound like crap!

from pedal noise, or clicking on piano recordings I never hear with tannoy system 600s to overall mix things I don't hear with ns10s, they always tell me what to change to get something that sounds better.

it all comes down to what works for you.. these probably work for me because of the years of playing music on them 24/7 anytime I am home, so I know what they sound like on everything.
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Post by RoyMatthews » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:31 am

rwc wrote: it all comes down to what works for you.. these probably work for me because of the years of playing music on them 24/7 anytime I am home, so I know what they sound like on everything.
This is pretty much the deal with almost any set of monitors.
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Post by tomberdude » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:16 am

Check out Hot House monitors. Nothing short of excellence. My next purchase.
AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote:Thanks prof! If Jesus were an engineer who frequented a message board, then he might possibly eerily resemble you. But I'm making the assumption that you're European and have a beard.
Now I'm no theologian (or a theist for that matter), but a fairly modest examination of Christian doctrine plainly reveals Jesus was Middle Eastern. An Aramaic speaking Galilean Jew, as under Herodian rule, there was no inhabited Judean Bethlehem. However, it's understandable that you are mixed up on it, as those books were/are poorly translated and continually re-written for past and modern agendas and convenience.

Did I already tell you guys the one about the rabbi and the priest? :lol:

-rl

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Post by AnalogousGumdropDecoder » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:46 pm

Destroy Big Brother wrote:Check out Hot House monitors. Nothing short of excellence. My next purchase.
AnalogousGumdropDecoder wrote:Thanks prof! If Jesus were an engineer who frequented a message board, then he might possibly eerily resemble you. But I'm making the assumption that you're European and have a beard.
Now I'm no theologian (or a theist for that matter), but a fairly modest examination of Christian doctrine plainly reveals Jesus was Middle Eastern. An Aramaic speaking Galilean Jew, as under Herodian rule, there was no inhabited Judean Bethlehem. However, it's understandable that you are mixed up on it, as those books were/are poorly translated and continually re-written for past and modern agendas and convenience.

Did I already tell you guys the one about the rabbi and the priest? :lol:

-rl
No, I'm fairly certain from all the pictures I've seen that he's a 16th century Italian dude.
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Post by fossiltooth » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:57 am

rwc wrote: maybe I'm nuts but I thought the exact opposite. never have I had a system that made so much of what I listen to sound like crap!
That's exactly why I love my auratones! Same destination, different road, I guess.

themagicmanmdt wrote:The better the system is, the more it makes everything ELSE sound great, too. And, it made me indecisive.
I think there's some truth to this. Sure, I love to have nice-sounding, great big speakers around, and I do a lot of work on them if I know I can trust them. Even if I can't trust them, I still like to remind myself that my mixes actually do sound big and impressive. That's an easy to forget when you're working on NS10s or auratones for a long stretch!

Use whatever works for you! If spending a lot of time on a super-accurate hifi system causes you to make killer mixes, then great! If mixing on midrangey grotboxes that reveal only the "heart and soul" of the mix causes you to make awesome sounding records, that's awesome too! There only one question: How do your mixes sound?

Here's the takeaway lesson... It's a lesson I've re-learned at least one too many times. I just learned it again the other day. If you ever feel that your mixes aren't quite up to snuff in outside environments, or if you have to make things sound unpleasant to you for them in order for them to translate, the first thing to evaluate is your listening situation. First. Before anything else. I just did this again the other day. I need to be sure that when something sounds good in my room, it will sound just as good on as many other systems as possible. You can't trust a mastering engineer to correct your mistakes. Even your favorite mastering engineer. It's unfair to you and to the ME.

We should never get defensive about our speakers if there's a chance they may be failing us in some way. I know the feeling: "I bought them. I liked them. They cost a good chunk of change, and it was a personal choice. They're fun to listen to." Whatever. If they work for you then they're perfect. If something is wrong, then get rid of them or a install an additional set of speakers that show the mix from another angle.

If you have to make things sound really bright in your room only to have them sound really dark in the outside world, then something is wrong painfully wrong with your listening environment. Do whatever you can to Fix it! I just did this the other day, and I'm so ecstatic about it. ....However, if your mixes sound like ass in your own room, then you have to re-evaluate your process and your perspective. In that case, a look at the way you're listening. I have to remind myself to do this every day.

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