sustain pedal noise on grand piano recording

[joninc]

what do you guys do to minimize the sound of the sustain pedal lifting off on a grand piano recording. it's a solo vocal and piano piece so we really want a rich full sound and the mic in the back of the piano getting nice low end is also amplifying the pedal noise.

got any tips??

[fossiltooth]

...have a piano tuner come in on the day of the performance.

[joninc]

the piano isn't broken - it's in great shape and well tuned.

it's just the natually occuring sound of the sus pedal going up and down. on a sparse intimate song it's more audible and i am looking for ways to minimize it.

[fossiltooth]

the piano isn't broken - it's in great shape and well tuned.

it's just the natually occuring sound of the sus pedal going up and down. on a sparse intimate song it's more audible and i am looking for ways to minimize it.

Yes. I understand.

I repeat: One of the best ways to reduce pedal noise is to have a good tuner come in on the day of the performance. A good "piano tuner" does a lot more than just "checking unisons".

Good luck! Hope all goes well.

[fossiltooth]

I recently ended up debating with another TapeOper in a recent thread about how often a studio piano should be tuned, and about whether it should be at the client or studio's cost.

I think a lot of argument stems from the fact that not everyone has a lot of knowledge or critical listening experience when it comes to this complex and demanding instrument. I'm just starting to learn myself. Once you open yourself up to it, it's a really fascinating subject. Like everybody, I've heard pianos since I was a child, but I've only recently been figuring out exactly what I'm hearing.

Try this. It's a really good read! There are a lot of "metaphysical" parallels to audio engineering as well, if you care to draw them.



Also, critically listen to a lot of pianos in various states of repair.

Its fun! You'll feel all schmart and shtuff too.

[joninc]

geez - c'mon man throw me a frickin bone here.

SO TELL ME:

what does a "good" piano tuner do to minimize this? i am studio recording right now and need more than your condescending remarks.

[joelpatterson]

I think in his roundabout way he's telling you that the squeakiness of pedals is a fault that can be corrected, by, I dunno, oiling the mechanism? Inserting little swabs of cotton or felt? Showering it with graphite?

[joninc]

IT's NOT SQUEAKING.

there is nothing wrong with the piano.

i am just trying to minimize the naturally occuring sound of a pedal when you release the sustain pedal and press it down again.

[palinilap]

Here's some search results at a piano forum that might be helpful:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

I have no idea how, but apparently a good piano tech can somewhat lessen pedal noise. Aside from that, distant miking and a more sensitive pedal technique might be you're only other options.

It totally depends on the song, but personally I dig the humanness and character pedal noise can add. My piano's out of tune right now, but for certain parts it sounds interesting, in a "no piano is out of tune exactly the same" sort of way.

[fossiltooth]

geez - c'mon man throw me a frickin bone here.

SO TELL ME:

what does a "good" piano tuner do to minimize this? i am studio recording right now and need more than your condescending remarks.

Sorry. I was trying to be helpful, not condescending. I'm sorry that if it came across that way. I'll be more careful about the way I phrase things in the future. My answer is: I don't know. Like I said, I'm just learning about it myself.

That's why I recommend a piano tuner: because I don't know. And, I doubt that the average person who reads this forum will know exactly what to check in your particular case. It could be a bunch of things: felts, tension, lubrication, performance, piano gremlins... However, a good piano tuner will know. The cost is worth it if the session is important. It's their job to know.

The book that I recommended has helped me understand a few new things, and fix a few issues with my piano, and a couple friend's pianos. Maybe it'll be a good future reference for you as well. I'm not holding back any answers. I just don't have the expertise to accurately answer your question, especially without being in the same room as the instrument. That's why I didn't try to make up an answer. We can't all be experts on everything, and that's OK.

Do you have any questions about microphones or routing? I'd be happy to give you a more thorough answer there! I'd be happy to throw you a bone if I could. Until then, the best I can do is recommend a book, and suggest hiring a specialist, if the recording is important enough to stress out over.

I think that's solid advice, and I stand by it.

Good luck!

[rwc]

The rare cases where I get to record someplace with a grand piano opposed to the honky U1 upright at work, I have mics 6-9 feet away from the piano at the least to get rid of phase cancellation whackiness from the soundboard. At that distance, the pedal noise isn't as much of an influence in the overall sound.

I think justin's saying piano tuners do a lot more than tune it because the piano tuner knows and he does not(or, at the very least, doesn't know enough to get it done himself). Most people don't! I know the piano tuner does that, but if I knew how.. I'd be making $100/hr.

If it's noticeable but not annoying, keep it in. I hear it on Diana Krall records. Al Schmitt records that stuff. While I'm not one to say "make it sound like his stuff", I doubt he'd let it pass by if it were absolutely detrimental to the making of the record. Is it absolutely detrimental to the making of this record?

Is it a really loud and annoying noise, or a very subtle, "it's there, but if I were walking around I wouldn't notice it" noise?

[Nick Sevilla]

geez - c'mon man throw me a frickin bone here.

SO TELL ME:

what does a "good" piano tuner do to minimize this? i am studio recording right now and need more than your condescending remarks.

I know,

Use a DIGITAL piano...you know, from a SYNTH???

You definitely will never hear that pedal noise. Unless you accidentally mic it up.

Now, after that lovely bit of sarcasmo...

1. Oil the metal bits. Lightly. This requires the correct oil, like one that a piano tuner guy might have in his kit...

2. Replace the pedal damper (If you don't know how... hire a piano tech..eh...tuner)

3. Suggest the player "lighten his stomping" on said pedal. Yeah, they'll agree, and right in the middle of the piece go right back to the ole stomping technique.

Hmmmm... better yet :

HIRE A PIANO TUNER TO FIX IT.

Or not.

[roscoenyc]

A piano can be 'set up' in lots of different ways.

An electric guitar with .08's on it tuned down to C is going to play much different than
the same guitar with '12's on it.

A guitar can be set up for slide specifically (maybe with higher action)

They call 'em piano 'tuners' for short but the good guys can do all kinds of things to pianos.

Get a good guy in there to work on your piano and tell him how it gets used. Tell him what you like about it and what you don't like about it. Get your piano 'set up'.

[idylldon]

As a piano tech/tuner, I can say that a certain amount of damper noise is part of the beast; that is, there is no way to get rid of all of it. There are ways, however, of minimizing it and many good ideas have been put forth already in the thread.

Believe it or not, damper felts get compacted just like hammers and once they harden up and get deep grooves in them it's difficult to minimize the noise. At that point, it's best just to replace the damper felts and trim them carefully to minimize their protrusion through the strings. This helps immensely to keep the damper noise down to a minimum while still retaining a complete muting of the note when needed. A good piano tech (not all tuners are techs) can advise you on whether or not the damper felts need to be replaced. There are some other ways to trim the damper felts and the tech can explain that as well.

As someone else pointed out, pedal technique is a BIG reason for excess damper noise. I have a 9' Steinway D in my studio and am constantly amazed by how varied pedal technique is among players. Some folks sit down and you can't hear a peep out of the pedal/dampers, while others sound as though they're stomping on the accelerator of a drag racer and then releasing by letting the pedal bang against the stop. A great player will find the working range of pedal movement and "play" it so that it doesn't cause any unwanted noises. To me, it's one of the things that separates good players from GREAT players.

Cheers,
--
Don

[rwc]

As someone else pointed out, pedal technique is a BIG reason for excess damper noise. I have a 9' Steinway D in my studio and am constantly amazed by how varied pedal technique is among players. Some folks sit down and you can't hear a peep out of the pedal/dampers, while others sound as though they're stomping on the accelerator of a drag racer and then releasing by letting the pedal bang against the stop. A great player will find the working range of pedal movement and "play" it so that it doesn't cause any unwanted noises. To me, it's one of the things that separates good players from GREAT players.

Cheers,
--
Don

I recall showing this potential client the studio three months ago. She wanted to do this cuban live music thing with piano, percussion, vocals, and acoustic guitar.

I had never noticed creaking in the piano before her. Apparently if you move the piano bench a certain way, it creaks, but for a year before - I never heard it. I double checked my old recordings to make sure it wasn't there. I hadn't noticed pedal noise either, but here, the pedal was in some case dwarfing the notes..