Mic help please

[goatboy]

Sorry if this is the kind of topic which just keeps on coming up but I need some advice on where is best to put my money. I have a small home project studio which I record my own stuff in currently I have a couple of 57s for my stereo guitar rig and am getting ok results. I am using a Mackie Onyx 400f as my interface in to my PC (soon to be upgraded) running cubase. I just ordered a pair of Adam A7s thank goodness as my old HiFi just wasn't cutting it and headphone only mixes probably isn't the best way to work. So I have recieved a bit of a cash injection in the form of a work bonus and I would like to get some mics so I can start recording vocals, acoustic guitar and improve my flexibilty in terms of electric guitar and bass. I have about ?500 to spend and if you guys think it would help I have some other money I can put towards out board mic pre's. I am not really tied down to aything so this is more a question of if you had ?500 to spend on the only mics you could use for the next year where would you put your money.

A bit of background to what I do, mainly guitar driven indie/post-rock type stuff with just me doing everything (hence why I like the home studio route). It is my bedroom so no acoustic treatment to speak of which I know is not ideal (far from it) but I am kind of stuck with it as I rent and have no other space available to me.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Mark.

[aaronburr]

as someone who was very recently in the "only a couple of sm57s" situation, my advice is: get 3-4 mics of different kinds. like for instance, if you buy some of those chinese made clones (apex, nady, etc.) - one large diaphragm condenser, one ribbon, and an RE20 or MD421 will run you around $500 (not sure in pounds) and be plenty versatile for guitars and vocals.

for vocals, youll definitely want a large diaphragm condenser. there are A LOT of less expensive options for these in the $100 range that are awesome, and a bunch that have an annoying fake-ass top end (akg perception, for instance) so beware. i hear the kelaudio hm-1 is pretty nice and even across the spectrum. people like the studio projects mics, too. bonus is a LDC will work nice for acoustic guitar too. i have a nady tcm something or other tube condenser and its nice but i think youll end up paying close to $200 even for a used one.

a ribbon for vocals is also nice if you want to warm up the voice and smooth off the top end. its at least a good alternative when you want a different sound than an LDC. a ribbon will also be nice right on the soundhole of an acoustic. pair this with an LDC pointed at the 12th fret and you have a reallll nice acoustic sound right there.

and im a firm believer in large diaphragm dynamic mics like the RE20 and the MD421. basically, where an sm57 is not quite enough but a condenser is too much, is where these mics shine. well, thats my inexperienced opinion but thats how it works for me.

also karma makes some cheap $10 condensers built into an XLR connector. i have a couple and they are COOL, but not like super hifi or anything. good color mic to have for not a lot of moneys.

[goatboy]

Thanks for the reply great advice. I was thinkning of one of the chinese ribbon mics as the mods seem to be pretty straightforward. As far as conderors go I was checking out the Rode mics as they seem pretty reasonably priced.

[aaronburr]

im personally not a fan of the rode mics. i think they arent as good as some other options in the price range. i think you can get a just-as-nice mic for less. seriously, check out the studio projects mics before getting rode. i dont even own one but ive heard from many sources they are just as good as those lower-end rode mics, for less.

[Professor]

I'm glad someone suggested getting a couple of different mics instead of getting a bunch of preamps. You're working off of the Mackie Onyx which may not be the world's most amazing preamp but you're not likely to improve upon it for less than maybe ?200 per channel... and there's only so much a preamp in that range can do to improve an SM-57. There's an old saying of "garbage in, garbage out" and while the argument over whether the SM-57 is garbage or not has been raging for ages, that's not the point I would make. Rather, I would say it is the only flavor of garbage you have to put in, and it would make sense to be able to get a few others first, because one man's garbage is another man's treasure... and if nothing else, you might get some nice compost.

Wow, that ended up as a much weirder analogy then it seemed it would be when I started typing.

Anyway, you should focus on mics, and you can probably figure on a few nicer ones.
?500 should translate into about $1000, although I don't know if certain brands of mics cost more or less over there than they do here. It would make sense that AKG, Neumann, Sennheiser, etc. should be cheaper there, and that American, Japanese & Chinese brands might be more. And I'm not sure where the VAT would kick in to screw things up.
But I would guess that LDC mics that run in the $500-600 range here might land around the ?300 mark there, and that could mean the AT-4050, AT-4060 tube, or AT-4040 or 4047, all really great LDCs for voice & guitar work, though also all a little different. One of those would suit your voice and/or guitar better than the others, with the voice being the trickier match and the guitar being relatively easier. AKG 414s run a little more here, but again, I'm not sure about over there, and Neuman's TLM series is just absolutely incredible.
I've only ever just demoed the RODE LDCs at shops, but I have to imagine they would actually out-perform the Chinese-made Studio Projects mics (and I do own one of those). The small-diaphragm Rode NT5 isn't anything real special, but the LDC stuff is quite different.

After that, I think the suggestion of a ribbon and a large-diaphragm dynamic are a great idea.
If the Chinese ribbons are selling over there the way they are here, then you should be able to get into one of those for under 100 quid, and honestly, I use the half dozen Chinese ribbons I bought for less than $120ea. far more often than the two American AEA ribbons that cost $1000ea.
And considering the popularity of the Sennheiser MD-421 in European broadcasting for the last 40 years or so, I would have to imagine you could pick one up in good condition off the used market for about another ?100. A Shure SM-7 or ElectroVoice RE-20 might perform a little better, but I have to imagine the cost would be significantly higher over there, probably in the ?200-250 range or more.


What I would do is get out to as many music and pro-audio shops as you can find nearby and try out a bunch of large diaphragm condensers. Put as much of your energy & budget as necessary into that target and get something that really just makes your ears happy. Then use the remaining budget to chase down a couple other flavor options in the form of a ribbon and a large dynamic.

-Jeremy

[goatboy]

im personally not a fan of the rode mics. i think they arent as good as some other options in the price range. i think you can get a just-as-nice mic for less. seriously, check out the studio projects mics before getting rode. i dont even own one but ive heard from many sources they are just as good as those lower-end rode mics, for less.

The reviews are very promising.

[goatboy]

I'm glad someone suggested getting a couple of different mics instead of getting a bunch of preamps. You're working off of the Mackie Onyx which may not be the world's most amazing preamp but you're not likely to improve upon it for less than maybe ?200 per channel... and there's only so much a preamp in that range can do to improve an SM-57. There's an old saying of "garbage in, garbage out" and while the argument over whether the SM-57 is garbage or not has been raging for ages, that's not the point I would make. Rather, I would say it is the only flavor of garbage you have to put in, and it would make sense to be able to get a few others first, because one man's garbage is another man's treasure... and if nothing else, you might get some nice compost.

Wow, that ended up as a much weirder analogy then it seemed it would be when I started typing.

Anyway, you should focus on mics, and you can probably figure on a few nicer ones.
?500 should translate into about $1000, although I don't know if certain brands of mics cost more or less over there than they do here. It would make sense that AKG, Neumann, Sennheiser, etc. should be cheaper there, and that American, Japanese & Chinese brands might be more. And I'm not sure where the VAT would kick in to screw things up.
But I would guess that LDC mics that run in the $500-600 range here might land around the ?300 mark there, and that could mean the AT-4050, AT-4060 tube, or AT-4040 or 4047, all really great LDCs for voice & guitar work, though also all a little different. One of those would suit your voice and/or guitar better than the others, with the voice being the trickier match and the guitar being relatively easier. AKG 414s run a little more here, but again, I'm not sure about over there, and Neuman's TLM series is just absolutely incredible.
I've only ever just demoed the RODE LDCs at shops, but I have to imagine they would actually out-perform the Chinese-made Studio Projects mics (and I do own one of those). The small-diaphragm Rode NT5 isn't anything real special, but the LDC stuff is quite different.

After that, I think the suggestion of a ribbon and a large-diaphragm dynamic are a great idea.
If the Chinese ribbons are selling over there the way they are here, then you should be able to get into one of those for under 100 quid, and honestly, I use the half dozen Chinese ribbons I bought for less than $120ea. far more often than the two American AEA ribbons that cost $1000ea.
And considering the popularity of the Sennheiser MD-421 in European broadcasting for the last 40 years or so, I would have to imagine you could pick one up in good condition off the used market for about another ?100. A Shure SM-7 or ElectroVoice RE-20 might perform a little better, but I have to imagine the cost would be significantly higher over there, probably in the ?200-250 range or more.


What I would do is get out to as many music and pro-audio shops as you can find nearby and try out a bunch of large diaphragm condensers. Put as much of your energy & budget as necessary into that target and get something that really just makes your ears happy. Then use the remaining budget to chase down a couple other flavor options in the form of a ribbon and a large dynamic.

-Jeremy

Thanks for the response, I am going to see if I can track down the cheap ribbon mics over here if not I'll probably just import one, I think that plus a LDC are my first steps and then I can look at the rest of the budget once I have sorted them out.

[goatboy]

I guess this is the same as the Nady Ribbons you get over there:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLASSIC-DOUBLE-RI ... dZViewItem

[rwc]

for vocals, youll definitely want a large diaphragm condenser.

These kinds of statements scare me.

I'd save an extra $100 and get a km84 from a reputable seller on ebay.

[Professor]

Yup, there's a bunch of those coming out of a factory in China. About two years ago we did a group purchase here on the messageboard and ordered over 300 of them at $225 per pair. Those are the ones we call the "TapeOp ribbons" in posts.
Same factory as the Nady, PPA, Shiny Box, T-Bone, and whoever the heck else is selling them now. The factory lets the buyer choose a grille & body style, color, logo, cable length or connector, bag or hard case, etc.
So at least those fall into about the same price range we are usually seeing around here.

-Jeremy

[goatboy]

for vocals, youll definitely want a large diaphragm condenser.

These kinds of statements scare me.

I'd save an extra $100 and get a km84 from a reputable seller on ebay.

That seems a bit pricy for my budget.

[rwc]

for vocals, youll definitely want a large diaphragm condenser.

These kinds of statements scare me.

I'd save an extra $100 and get a km84 from a reputable seller on ebay.

That seems a bit pricy for my budget.

500 Euros = 788.15 U.S. dollars

Whoops. I was under the crazy impression 1 euro = 2 dollars. where is my head?!

try a sennheiser 441.

the key is to avoid cheap chinese condensors with poor off axis response, spitty high end, boxy midrange, and tinny low end.

[goatboy]

for vocals, youll definitely want a large diaphragm condenser.

These kinds of statements scare me.

I'd save an extra $100 and get a km84 from a reputable seller on ebay.

That seems a bit pricy for my budget.

500 Euros = 788.15 U.S. dollars

Whoops. I was under the crazy impression 1 euro = 2 dollars. where is my head?!

try a sennheiser 441.

the key is to avoid cheap chinese condensors with poor off axis response, spitty high end, boxy midrange, and tinny low end.

No you were right it is pounds I am working with (I'm in th UK) so it is around 1000 but I think I need some variation and I couldn't do everything with one pricey mic. Thanks fir the input though I will definatly keep the stuff about the chinese condesors in mind. Man, buying mics seems like a minefield.

[rwc]

how about a sennheiser 441 and an akg 451.. or a sennheiser 441 and an AT4050?

[goatboy]

how about a sennheiser 441 and an akg 451.. or a sennheiser 441 and an AT4050?

They both look ideal. I think I am going to have to buy from you side of the pond though. The AT4050 is twice the price here:
http://www.bem-music.co.uk/list.pl?id=106275

and the 441 is about ?550 .