Need a little advice

[imdrecordings]

The other day I had a strange experience.
I'm about 98% done with this bands album, when they sat me down and told me something that I found unnerving.

After 2 years of hard work, proper recording, editing, mixing,automating and listening. They said that no one sound on each song stuck out as a good sound. Meaning, they never go... "that's a killer guitar sound or listen to that snare". They love the album and each song as a whole, but they miss not being able to say, "listen to that bass tone...etc"

I found this really upsetting, since I had put so much work and effort into making each song work from end to end. Being each song has about 60 tracks of *stuff*.

I didn't know how to respond, so I just sat there shaking my head saying "hmm?".
This is the first time in my life where I thought, "Maybe someone else should mix this?" I even said that to the band and they said no way! I'm confused...

The first thing that came to my mind was they are to familiar with the album and have heard too much over time. With mixing and all. That if they gave it time they could appreciate the album as a whole and they might just be over looking a few of the little things. If I had my way, I'd remove about 30 of the tracks and keep each song straight up, but this goes against what the band wants and it's not my album and it needs to be just how they like it. Make it work, kind of thing!

And to tell you the truth, to me, there are so many track and so much was thought of as an overdub, that I had to neuter some stuff to make everything work. The mixes are just so dense.

Since then I've become very nervous and unsure of things, and I kind of don't want to deal with it anymore. It really shook me up and made me feel like a complete hack.
But I've decided to start taking notes again, for each song and try and bring that element back in. Little by Little. In the end I'm sure this album will sound great, but after all this time I find it weird that I'm so nervous all of a sudden and feel like an idiot after hearing that.

Is this some kind of cold feet thing? Are they too attached to it maybe or over analyzing?

In y mind either I'm totally missing the mark or they have very little idea as to what there music really is or should sound like. Probably a bit of both.
Creative tension...

[newfuturevintage]

Is this some kind of cold feet thing? Are they too attached to it maybe or over analyzing?

All of this could very easily be part of the issue.

In your shoes, I think my only recourse would be to ask them, "OK, what would you like to do about it...would you like to retrack from the start, remix things, rearrange the recordings?".

I've had experiences like this too, and it's almost always with less experienced bands that take a lot of time on a recording. No matter how well they track the material when they do basics and overdubs, two things happen: they get tired of the material, and they get better as performers, usually and especially the singer. As a result, they get increasingly unhappy with their performances and with the recordings. As for what to do? Sit down with them, talk to them and find out the best way to proceed. Don't take it personally though, in all likelihood, it's not you.

[@?,*???&?]

The other day I had a strange experience.
I'm about 98% done with this bands album, when they sat me down and told me something that I found unnerving.

After 2 years of hard work, proper recording, editing, mixing,automating and listening. They said that no one sound on each song stuck out as a good sound. Meaning, they never go... "that's a killer guitar sound or listen to that snare". They love the album and each song as a whole, but they miss not being able to say, "listen to that bass tone...etc"

I found this really upsetting, since I had put so much work and effort into making each song work from end to end. Being each song has about 60 tracks of *stuff*.

I didn't know how to respond, so I just sat there shaking my head saying "hmm?".
This is the first time in my life where I thought, "Maybe someone else should mix this?" I even said that to the band and they said no way! I'm confused...

The first thing that came to my mind was they are to familiar with the album and have heard too much over time. With mixing and all. That if they gave it time they could appreciate the album as a whole and they might just be over looking a few of the little things. If I had my way, I'd remove about 30 of the tracks and keep each song straight up, but this goes against what the band wants and it's not my album and it needs to be just how they like it. Make it work, kind of thing!

And to tell you the truth, to me, there are so many track and so much was thought of as an overdub, that I had to neuter some stuff to make everything work. The mixes are just so dense.

Since then I've become very nervous and unsure of things, and I kind of don't want to deal with it anymore. It really shook me up and made me feel like a complete hack.
But I've decided to start taking notes again, for each song and try and bring that element back in. Little by Little. In the end I'm sure this album will sound great, but after all this time I find it weird that I'm so nervous all of a sudden and feel like an idiot after hearing that.

Is this some kind of cold feet thing? Are they too attached to it maybe or over analyzing?

In y mind either I'm totally missing the mark or they have very little idea as to what there music really is or should sound like. Probably a bit of both.
Creative tension...

60 tracks of material? I'd say their arrangements suck. Just compress it to death and no one will be able to tell. How old are the band members?

[Young Winston]

Variations on "just compress the hell out of it" seems to be Jeff's new thing to say, as he's said it now on at least three threads as some sort of snarky blanket dismissal.

[rwc]

Being each song has about 60 tracks of *stuff*.

I hate getting shit like this. 5000 parts on top of each other with the idea of automating/cleaning up later. nonsense.

few people seem to be able to pull off the sixty tracks thing without it sounding like an incoherent mess.

[Nick Sevilla]

I feel your pain.

They are definitely too close to the project.

2 YEARS??? WTF???

The last record I did that took a long time it was exactly the same thing at the end. Everyone was sick of listening to the same music over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Until, magically, the label came and took it away from us. That was a relief.

What do you get when you put musicians in a recording studio?

[Gentleman Jim]

imdrecordings wrote:

If I had my way, I'd remove about 30 of the tracks and keep each song straight up...

Is it feasible to try this with one song on your own? If there's one that seems particularly smothered by overdubs but is basically a good song, show them. This may allow for a less cluttered mix of 'better sounds.'

It will take some of your time, but in the end at least you'll have something to make your point.

[fossiltooth]

The other day I had a strange experience.
I'm about 98% done with this bands album, when they sat me down and told me something that I found unnerving.

After 2 years of hard work, proper recording, editing, mixing,automating and listening. They said that no one sound on each song stuck out as a good sound.

That's just what happens if you spend two years making a record! Endless tweaking and second-guessing will inevitably cause this.

This is exactly why experienced engineers, producers and mixers are still so valuable in this Home recording era. Great ones have the perspective and experience to make good choices now, help the artist realize when they should throw away what doesn't work, and realize the artist's vision today... instead of two years from now! This happens to a lot of people. What you're going through is normal, and you're not alone.

How can someone possibly make bold and innovative choices without first having the confidence that comes from experience? To be fair, sometimes the naked arrogance of inexperience can achieve similar results, but it's far more rare.

I found this really upsetting, since I had put so much work and effort into making each song work from end to end. Being each song has about 60 tracks of *stuff*.

How is any one track supposed to stick out as "good" when there's so much competition for attention? Sometimes you need just a little bit of space to establish a sound as being "awesome". Then you can throw all that other sh*t on top... if it sounds good.

I didn't know how to respond, so I just sat there shaking my head saying "hmm?".
This is the first time in my life where I thought, "Maybe someone else should mix this?" I even said that to the band and they said no way! I'm confused...

You're responding as well as anyone can. Always remember that perspective is crucial. Either find it in yourself, or find someone who can supply it. If you're too close to the material, perhaps you should step back and have someone else mix it. What's important is that the record sounds awesome in the end. That's what will advance your career and theirs.

If you want to mix it yourself, you must step back and find perspective. If you, like the band are unable to, bring in a trusted outsider. Your personal mark will still be on the project. How could it not be after so much time?

The first thing that came to my mind was they are to familiar with the album and have heard too much over time.

This is true. And this is happening more and more these days. DAWs and inexperienced producers are the cause. That's the story of the beginning of my career! When we're teaching ourselves, we all go through this.

That if they gave it time they could appreciate the album as a whole and they might just be over looking a few of the little things.

This could be all that it is. Separation anxiety. It's is a great producer's job to squash this with confidence and the wisdom of experience.

If I had my way, I'd remove about 30 of the tracks and keep each song straight up, but this goes against what the band wants and it's not my album and it needs to be just how they like it. Make it work, kind of thing!

You're a smart guy. You realize that sometimes "making it work" requires removing 30 tracks. Unfortunately, it seems that the band sees you as a beginner and doesn't trust your judgment or perspective... probably because you don't trust your judgment or perspective. We've all been there. It takes time to gain infectious confidence in your own judgment. Few of us are born with it, and most of those who are are assh*les!

Is this some kind of cold feet thing? Are they too attached to it maybe or over analyzing?

Probably.

In y mind either I'm totally missing the mark or they have very little idea as to what there music really is or should sound like. Probably a bit of both.

Agreed. You've got a good head on your shoulders, man.

Creative tension...

...doesn't need to exist.

Good luck!

For future reference, going to another engineer for mixing is "normal". We each have our own strengths, and we should learn to recognize what they are (aren't) if we want to do well. Maybe this experience will help teach you to be an awesome mixer in the long run... maybe it will teach you that mixing just ain't your cup of tea. Either way, it's totally OK.

Good luck!

[LeedyGuy]

I was in a 60 track (make that 100!) per song band complete with weird guitar doublings mixed light on the opposite side of the main part, misplaced strings, pianos, keyboards, synths, fake drum track layers, you freakin name it. Guess how long it took for the record to be done: 2 years. Guess how many lineup changes there were in 2 years: 3 (myself included). Guess how many of the songs sounded old and tired from over recording the hell out of everything: all of them. Guess how many people cared when the thing finally came out: NONE.

I would start having the conversation with them about where they see this going and what their ambition is with this collection of tunes. If they are a young band, they probably have come up with better material or at least think they could have by now. Maybe keep it as promo material for shows and myspace and not officially release it, cut some dead wood out and get on with retracking with 2 years of studio experience under their belt.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

either I'm totally missing the mark or they have very little idea as to what there music really is or should sound like.

i think it's way way more of the latter. i bet you did a great job. i would be upset too if a band told me that, but i think in this case you should not worry about it. if they like the way the record sounds as a whole then great. if the mixes work then who cares if it's a killer bass tone or not. or yunno, maybe they are wanting their guitars to sound exactly like they do at practice and they don't understand that in a song with 476 overdubs it's just not going to happen.

or maybe they just need to hear it mastered...

my old band's first record was a 2 year 60 tracker that actually turned out pretty good if i do say so myself. but yeah in general i think the less you do and the quicker you do it the better.

[audiogeek1]

I feel your pain. Some good advice given here. I would definitely talk with them. One of the best things I have ever heard from someone is: The second most valuable tool an engineer has beyond his/her ears is the Mute Button.

I would say if they want the tones back. Start using the mute button to give you the sonic landscape to get the tones back.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck

Mike

[imdrecordings]

Thank you all!

I'm planning on mixing down the album this next coming week and told the band we don't really have the time or the budget to make any more HUGE adjustments, but if something was really concerning them, we not over look it.
I've also made the decision to not work on this project at home anymore, like I was. I'm only working on it when we are all there to make the decision in the studio.
And come mix-down time I'll have a friend there with me who is also a great engineer, for back up and constructive listening/advice. It's his room and his tape machine, so I trust his opinion. We can make more minor/necessary adjustments then and there, with he and the band present. We've all agreed to live and love our results.

I think you are all right, that the band just needs to hear it Mastered/ Compressed, and are just over consumed with it (me included). I love these guys' music and I love them as friends. We all wont this album to be great, but knowing when to say when (without compromise) is dificult...

I printed a mix for them, where I went out of the PC and came back in clipping the AD a bit. Played the CD for them and they said "That's it!"... Yet another weird experience that left me slightly uncomfortable and dumbfounded...
Although I still think another person needs to mix 1 or 2 of the songs on the album...
This thing needs to be put to bed.

Thank you all!!!!!!!!
I'm amazed at the detail and kind hearted responses.

[theBaldfather]

I understand your pain on drawn out projects. I have never had a good project come out of anything over a month or two. It's just too scattered, musicians get better (as mentioned before) and it's very hard to get a focused record. The songs I end up going back and listening to later are almost always the ones that were laid down quickly with a few happy accidents that ended up being exactly what the song needed . Now if it looks like the band wants to draw the project out over a long time I usually suggest paring down the song list until we can do it quickly and with focus. Good luck man! I've had a few of those uncomfortable talks myself, and it's always helped me learn for the next one.

[rwc]

just compress it to death and no one will be able to tell.

My mantra-

I will not mix with an L1, +L1 or L2 on my buss nor will I use one at any stage of the mixing

I will not overlimit, overcompress or smear my bottom end with ugly, ugly compression

What a change.

Glad to hear you're moving towards a happy ending!

[JGriffin]

just compress it to death and no one will be able to tell.

My mantra-

I will not mix with an L1, +L1 or L2 on my buss nor will I use one at any stage of the mixing

I will not overlimit, overcompress or smear my bottom end with ugly, ugly compression

What a change.

Glad to hear you're moving towards a happy ending!

you pay more for that, or so I hear.