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8th_note
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Post by 8th_note » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:44 pm

Yeah, I think I'd be better off focusing on a converter upgrade rather than worrying about clock. One of these days...
I also have a Delta 1010.

Before you spring for "better" converters as opposed to spending the money on some other part of your chain, you might try a little test. Hook up a CD player to your converter and record a song from a few different CDs into your DAW (I used 44.1/24). Now hook up the CD player to your monitor system making sure you are using the same signal path you are using for your converter output. Match the levels of the CD player with your DAW as close as you can, synch up the output fairly close, and compare the two sources (CD and DAW). You are comparing the CD player analog output with a round-trip A/D/A conversion through the Delta 1010 and your DAW.

I tried this and I'll be damned if I can hear a consistant difference. If the converter is doing something terrible to the sound I can't hear it. After posting this on the board and having people say that the reason I couldn't hear a difference was because the CD signal had been digitized once already I tried the same thing with an acoustic guitar through my reel-to-reel. Same result. The original sounds so close to the A/D/A conversion that I have to absolutely strain to hear any difference at all with the best headphones I have. Sometimes I thought I could hear a difference but then I would come back later and I couldn't hear the difference.

I don't know if the Delta 1010 is an amazing piece of gear for the price or what but all I can say is that my unit has virtually no effect on the sound. What comes out sounds just like what went in. Based on this experience, I'm not sure how much better new converters will be. I don't want my converters to be some kind of tone control or distortion generator. I just want them to be accurate.

I can sure as hell tell the difference between microphones and preamps so that's where I'm throwing my money so far.

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leigh
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dear @?,*ƒƒƒ&™

Post by leigh » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:46 pm

One of the dubious benefits of having a handle like @?,*ƒƒƒ&™ is that sending private messages to the user fails... upon attempting to send a PM, several of the characters in that handle are replaced by their HTML entities (see the subject line of this post), and then, perversely, the user name isn't recognized anymore by the BB system.

...all by way of saying, I tried to send ol' Jeffy a note, to ask him more directly about his "better clocking leads to hotter signal" theory/smokescreen/mishegas. No dice! Well, for the record, I don't buy it for a second, Jeff, and I think you're just throwing gasoline on the fire. And with the price of gas these days, it's really your loss...

Leigh

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Re: dear @?,*ƒƒƒ&™

Post by @?,*???&? » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:33 pm

leigh wrote:One of the dubious benefits of having a handle like @?,*???&? is that sending private messages to the user fails... upon attempting to send a PM, several of the characters in that handle are replaced by their HTML entities (see the subject line of this post), and then, perversely, the user name isn't recognized anymore by the BB system.

...all by way of saying, I tried to send ol' Jeffy a note, to ask him more directly about his "better clocking leads to hotter signal" theory/smokescreen/mishegas. No dice! Well, for the record, I don't buy it for a second, Jeff, and I think you're just throwing gasoline on the fire. And with the price of gas these days, it's really your loss...

Leigh
And you have no idea how hard it was finding the combination of keystrokes to get those musical notation symbols in there!

As for your question, it's not really a matter of achieving a hotter signal- that's not how it's perceived, it's about achieving the best signal to noise ratio and better stereo separation with minimal crosstalk. Jitter is a major bummer when it comes to digital recording.

I'd suggest you pick up Ken Pohlmann's "Principles of Digital Audio". It's a big text, but has tons more great information.

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Post by rwc » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:09 pm

@?,*???&? wrote:A Behringer ADA8000 has a clean top and more lean bottom. Cymbals sound good with this device.
I have not found a single redeeming quality with this device.
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Oscar Wilde

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rwc
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Post by rwc » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:13 pm

jeddypoo wrote:
Leviethan wrote:
Why does a Drawmer pre-amp cost 2500, but an ART costs 300? Because the Drawmer is better made and sounds way better. Why does a Mercedes cost four times as much as a Ford Escort? Because the Mercedes is a better car in every way. But they're both cars right?
That's a specious argument. The price of most things is significantly affected by the cost of advertising them. That's the whole purpose of generic and no-ad products. Yes, there is a difference in quality between, say, an Mbox and an Apogee, but it's not a hard and fast rule.
isn't drawmer the company with plastic 1/4" connectors on their gates? unbalanced, might I add..

I feel really ignorant right now. I had no idea they made quality gear.
Real friends stab you in the front.

Oscar Wilde

Failed audio engineer & pro studio tech turned Component level motherboard repair store in New York

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leigh
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Re: dear @?,*ƒƒƒ&™

Post by leigh » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:28 pm

@?,*ƒƒƒ&™ wrote:When you come to realize that 7 to 8 db of signal can be gained through having good word clock, then you'll start having more open sounding recordings.
@?,*ƒƒƒ&™ wrote:As for your question, it's not really a matter of achieving a hotter signal- that's not how it's perceived, it's about achieving the best signal to noise ratio and better stereo separation with minimal crosstalk. Jitter is a major bummer when it comes to digital recording.

I'd suggest you pick up Ken Pohlmann's "Principles of Digital Audio". It's a big text, but has tons more great information.
I've read Katz's "Mastering Audio", and I understand jitter pretty darn well. I just thought your bit about gaining 7 to 8 dB was a bit vague. "Gain" happens at many points in the recording/playback process - at what stage did you mean?

Leigh

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Post by chris harris » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:08 am

????? wrote:isn't drawmer the company with plastic 1/4" connectors on their gates? unbalanced, might I add..

I feel really ignorant right now. I had no idea they made quality gear.
I'm pretty sure that the Drawmer Punch Gates are XLR only for i/o. No 1/4" connectors at all. And, they're pretty awesome.

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Post by rwc » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:36 am

subatomic pieces wrote:
????? wrote:isn't drawmer the company with plastic 1/4" connectors on their gates? unbalanced, might I add..

I feel really ignorant right now. I had no idea they made quality gear.
I'm pretty sure that the Drawmer Punch Gates are XLR only for i/o. No 1/4" connectors at all. And, they're pretty awesome.
damn. I know I'm thinking of some company's gate. I think it's the drawmer DS201.
Real friends stab you in the front.

Oscar Wilde

Failed audio engineer & pro studio tech turned Component level motherboard repair store in New York

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Post by calaverasgrandes » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:11 pm

about Dan Lavry and clocking. My impression of what he was saying, or trying to say,is that an internal clock, with no PLL circuit for external clocking will be more accurate than the same externally clocked AD or DA. YMMV all other variables being equal etc.
In the real world pretty much every converter has a PLL circuit embedded in the clock design. This injects its own errors even if you arent clocking externally. This (correct me if I am wrong) is also why the BLA mod for the MOTU 828 clock would render it unable to accept external clock, but it could spit clock out no problem. (I wish they would resurrect that mod or publish how to do it, my BLA modded unit sounds great, but is still a bit grainy).
ADA8000 sounds good on cymbals? Thats precisely what I couldnt stand it on. And the whole reason I ebayed that crap after I was finshed with it. Everything I recorded thru mine sounded...passable. But somehow needed extra helpings of EQ and dynamics to fit in mix. That stuff is so demo quality. Blecch Now I have to go brush my teeth to get the taste of behringer out of my mouth.
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."

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