Locating -18dbFS/0dbVU in ProTools

[giuseppe_fl]

Recording at lower levels begets clearer, stronger sound, and the optimal range to aim for in a DAW is -0dbVU or 18dbFS.

Got it. And that's bearing itself out here as I begin to use my Digi002 setup.

BUT -- I've got what may be a silly question:

How exactly do I locate the 0dbVU sweet spot on my ProTools meters?

All I've got are the faders and the green-to-red VU meters, but I have no idea what dbVU levels they're reaching.

I'm recording so that they peak out just short of where they begin to turn yellow, and that's about 60-65% of the way up the meters. But I don't know how to determine what level that actually corresponds to.

I've combed my manual, message boards, and supplemental books and this basic fact has been really hard to find.

Clearly I'm missing something that's really obvious to everybody else.

If anyone can explain this to me it'd be a huge help.

I'd like to verify that my levels are coming in in the correct range.

Thanks

[JGriffin]

Recording at lower levels begets clearer, stronger sound, and the optimal range to aim for in a DAW is -0dbVU or 18dbFS.

Got it. And that's bearing itself out here as I begin to use my Digi002 setup.

BUT -- I've got what may be a silly question:

How exactly do I locate the 0dbVU sweet spot on my ProTools meters?

All I've got are the faders and the green-to-red VU meters, but I have no idea what dbVU levels they're reaching.

I'm recording so that they peak out just short of where they begin to turn yellow, and that's about 60-65% of the way up the meters. But I don't know how to determine what level that actually corresponds to.

I've combed my manual, message boards, and supplemental books and this basic fact has been really hard to find.

Clearly I'm missing something that's really obvious to everybody else.

If anyone can explain this to me it'd be a huge help.

I'd like to verify that my levels are coming in in the correct range.

Thanks

It's one of the really frustrating things about PT's interface design: no numbers on the meters. There are metering plug-ins you can use though, I think Bomb Factory makes some and they may ship with new PT rigs these days. Look under "Sound Field" in the PT plugin drop-down menu.

[chris harris]

don't worry about the range.... as long as you're not clipping at the AtoD converter, you'll be fine setting levels by ear. record at levels that sound good. that's the most important part.

the only reason I even look at the meters in my DAW when I'm setting levels, it to verify that I'm getting signal to the correct input and that nothing is clipping.

[RoyMatthews]

I'm still using an old version of ProTools so someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you command-click on the volume number that will switch it to show the peak level. Click on that to reset the peak. Cmd-click again to show the latency of all plug-ins on that track.
I'm sure someone can explain it better than I can. Check the manual.

[giuseppe_fl]

the only reason I even look at the meters in my DAW when I'm setting levels, it to verify that I'm getting signal to the correct input and that nothing is clipping.

Good deal. And by clipping you mean, like, just butting up against the yellow range on the meters or what?

I mean, how much risk is there of recording stuff too low?

I think Bomb Factory makes some and they may ship with new PT rigs these days. Look under "Sound Field" in the PT plugin drop-down menu.

Thanks! I'll check for that. I'm liking what I'm hearing but the 0dbVU has been hammered so heavily in this forum (and I trust the folks who post on here) that I'd really like to see where exactly my levels are landing.

Thanks to both of you.

[giuseppe_fl]

if you command-click on the volume number that will switch it to show the peak level. Click on that to reset the peak. Cmd-click again to show the latency of all plug-ins on that track.

That absolutely works. Thank you! Now I just need to figure out if that's giving me dbVU or dbFS......

[JGriffin]

if you command-click on the volume number that will switch it to show the peak level. Click on that to reset the peak. Cmd-click again to show the latency of all plug-ins on that track.

That absolutely works. Thank you! Now I just need to figure out if that's giving me dbVU or dbFS......

If you totally spike your levels and you're only just approaching 0, you're working in fs. If your levels are hitting about halfway up and you exceed 0, it's VU. With 18dB of difference between the two scales it shouldn't be tough to tell.

[farview]

I don't use Protools, but in general, you want your signal to average about half way up the meter.

Your Protools meters are reading dbFS.

The other thing to keep in mind is that VU meters are slow and tell you the average level of the signal, not the peak level. Digital meters are fast and tell you the peak level.

The peak level is only useful for determining if you have clipped the converters. Other than that, it doesn't matter.

The average level is what matters. A high average level will over-tax the analog side of the signal path, making your audio sound 'pinched', etc...

The reason you can't find anything about this in the manuals is because, from a digital audio, software design perspective, levels do not matter as long as they are not clipping. Once the signal is digitized and in the computer, it's level does not matter in the least. The problems start when you are trying to get your analog signal into or out of the digital world.

This was much easier before they started coming out with these all-in-one units (like the m-box). When everyone had a separate preamp, or mixer, and an AD conveter, you would just set the level with the VU meter on the preamp (or mixer) and glance at the meter in your software to make sure that nothing was clipping. DONE.

If the converters are calibrated to -18dbfs = 0dbVU, that means that a signal that is just below clipping (for example, -1dbfs) is actually at +17dbVU. Taking into account that the preamp was designed to run optimally at 0dbVU, you can see how you might run into problems.

[chris harris]

^^^^^^^
that's good stuff.

[jmiller]

One quick and dirty (and yet roundabout) way to see is to put the Trim plug on the channel. The Trim plugin has a numbered meter. After seeing that in action a couple times you'll know where -18 is; about halfway as mentioned above.

[johnny7]

One quick and dirty (and yet roundabout) way to see is to put the Trim plug on the channel. The Trim plugin has a numbered meter. After seeing that in action a couple times you'll know where -18 is; about halfway as mentioned above.

This is what i did. It works great. You just have to get used to what doesn't look like a healthy level. Btw, I just went in for mastering and the ME was delighted with the levels...

[JGriffin]

You just have to get used to what doesn't look like a healthy level. Btw, I just went in for mastering and the ME was delighted with the levels...

Awesome.

[jmiller]

So... What kind of "healthy levels" are you looking for on the Master Fader where everything is summed? To this I confess total ignorance. And, my head hurts so I don't want to do any thinking

[giuseppe_fl]

So... What kind of "healthy levels" are you looking for on the Master Fader where everything is summed? To this I confess total ignorance.

Yeah, that's another thing I was wondering. Cuz correct me if I'm wrong, your recording levels become more and more important in direct relation to how many tracks you've got happening in a song.

I just recorded a song with a friend of mine, and we worked to keep the levels low, but I didn't know about the command-click numbered meter feature and we recorded well above -18dbfs.

Our levels were closer to -6dbfs, somewhere in that range.

The result is that all the individual tracks sound pretty good on their own, but the summed master levels are pretty hot and together the tracks are sounding crowded, crunchy, boxy, and harsh.

Based on everything I've heard here, that effect will start to diminish when you get good sounds in the -18 dbfs range and lower, right?.....

Thanks to everyone for all the information here.

[chris harris]

I don't believe this voodoo about how all faders up should sound like a mixed record.

The idea of getting appropriate levels is to maximize the efficiency of the mics and preamps that you're using. It's not about mixing the song AS YOU'RE TRACKING.

Get good levels running your preamps at appropriate levels, and then mix with the friggin' faders. That's what they're there for. If the sound is waay too loud on your mix bus, either lower the mix bus fader, or start lowering individual faders.

If you were tracking levels that peak around -6dbFS, then you should be fine. It's probably not the tracking that is making everything sound cluttered. It's the mix. Mix the song.