live vocals - controlling delay from stage

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Holy Wolf
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Post by Holy Wolf » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:50 pm

ps.I mean, they hardly ever moderate this board for anything but spam. But 3 'fucking"s in 3 sentences is a bit much.[/quote]



Whats your avatar? FUCK!

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calaverasgrandes
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Post by calaverasgrandes » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:56 pm

Holy Wolf wrote:ps.I mean, they hardly ever moderate this board for anything but spam. But 3 'fucking"s in 3 sentences is a bit much.


Whats your avatar? FUCK![/quote]

i dont mean it as a prude, just on points of style yo. Get some vocabulary! If you said totally 3 times it would be just the same.
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Holy Wolf
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Post by Holy Wolf » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:51 am

I am not the one who said fuck. I could care less if someone says fuck however many time's.


I was just commenting on how FUCKING hilarious and ironic it was that you commented on that with your avatar that you have.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:21 am

TRIFECTA and Holy Wolf = same person, split personality.

Search all of TRIFECTA's posts. The evidence is all there.

Holy Wolf was TRIFECTA's "second chance" persona.

Holy Wolf should really retire the TRIFECTA handle.

I had ALMOST forgotten TRIFECTA and then Holy Wolf decided to bring him back for this thread. Bad move, Holy Wolf. I was ready to give you a second chance. Now, you're bringing back your other alias and fucking it all up.

I'm not gonna go back and copy/paste the evidence again. I'll just say that I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that Holy Wolf and TRIFECTA are the same person. Attempting to deny it again at this point would be pretty ridiculous.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:35 am

to the OP...

you seem to be having a bit of an identity crisis as well. you can't decide if you're worried about "degrading" the signal or if you are "lofi dude".

If you wanna know why there are so many crappy sound engineers running boards in small venues all over the country, who don't really care about your band, it's probably got something to do with the handful of bands that they see every week who know absolutely nothing about playing live music and attempt to "run sound" from the stage.

There are obvious exceptions because some bands/singers do this very well.

But, the truth is, your singer should spend their time worrying about singing and performing and let the audio engineer handle the delay.

If you wanna run vocal effects from the stage, and you don't want the sound engineer to just think of you as an inexperienced asshole who's getting in the way of a smooth evening of sound engineering, then do the following:

get a transformer-balanced mic splitter. send the engineer 2 signals. 1 of them should be dry for the monitors. The other one should be through your effects for the house.

If you want your effected signal to sound good and be easy to work with for the house engineer, you need to do the following:

mic -> mic splitter -> fx side -> mic preamp -> reamp box -> delay pedal -> DI -> stage snake

I know that this is gonna sound harsh, but... I've been running sound for years.. when I see a band that wants to run vocal fx from the stage, there's a 90% chance that they haven't been playing out very much. They usually have other aspects of their set where they don't really know what they're doing.

This may or may not be your band. I'm just suggesting that before you needlessly make your band one of the most difficult in town to deal with, maybe go out and watch a bunch of touring bands and see how they do things.

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Post by JGriffin » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:54 pm

Meriphew wrote:
jmiller wrote:
calaverasgrandes wrote:I'm surpised nobody mentioned the obvious solution. Get a hotter mic. Shure Betas are about 6 db hotter. Most vocal condensers are gonna be 12-20db hotter than a 58.
But how are you going to supply phantom power to a condenser that's plugged in to a pedal?
Beta 58 doesn't need phantom power.
A Beta 58 is also not a condenser, it's a dynamic.


Pardon me: a fucking Beta 58 is also not a fucking condenser, it's a fucking dynamic.

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Post by thieves » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:16 pm

subatomic pieces wrote:to the OP...

you seem to be having a bit of an identity crisis as well. you can't decide if you're worried about "degrading" the signal or if you are "lofi dude".

If you wanna know why there are so many crappy sound engineers running boards in small venues all over the country, who don't really care about your band, it's probably got something to do with the handful of bands that they see every week who know absolutely nothing about playing live music and attempt to "run sound" from the stage.

There are obvious exceptions because some bands/singers do this very well.

But, the truth is, your singer should spend their time worrying about singing and performing and let the audio engineer handle the delay.

If you wanna run vocal effects from the stage, and you don't want the sound engineer to just think of you as an inexperienced asshole who's getting in the way of a smooth evening of sound engineering, then do the following:

get a transformer-balanced mic splitter. send the engineer 2 signals. 1 of them should be dry for the monitors. The other one should be through your effects for the house.

If you want your effected signal to sound good and be easy to work with for the house engineer, you need to do the following:

mic -> mic splitter -> fx side -> mic preamp -> reamp box -> delay pedal -> DI -> stage snake

I know that this is gonna sound harsh, but... I've been running sound for years.. when I see a band that wants to run vocal fx from the stage, there's a 90% chance that they haven't been playing out very much. They usually have other aspects of their set where they don't really know what they're doing.

This may or may not be your band. I'm just suggesting that before you needlessly make your band one of the most difficult in town to deal with, maybe go out and watch a bunch of touring bands and see how they do things.
+1 on all of this. i don't run sound or anything, but have played in a range of bands over the years. a band who insists on vocal effects is also the kind of band who insists on using wireless systems in a tiny bar. they're just putting the cart before the horse
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calaverasgrandes
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Post by calaverasgrandes » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:11 pm

okay first yo.
I wasnt trying to be a cuss word nazi.
I was trying to be a grammar nazi. I suppose I could have been more eloquent about it though. I have a bad habit of only visiting forums when I am winding down after a 14 hour shift. So yeah, blow me. Grow a vocabulary.

I can see both sides of the sound guy thing. I have done sound for hundreds of bands at dozens of venues. When a band has all their stuff figured out its no problem. Some of the industrial bands I did sound for back int he 90's were very good at this. Sharkbait, Beatnigs and Grotus come to mind. When bands have no idea what they are doing it ruins everything. I wont name bands but an awful lot of goth/darkwave bands would do the vocal effects from the stage and just eff the levels all up.
Some mixers only handle mic level on inputs so getting a crazy hot line level from the stage would be ashow stopper. More often than not neither the venue not the bands ahd any m-f or xlr-1/4" adapters or spare DI boxes.
But then as a former member of some weirdo bands like Spank Magic, Bonk, NSV, noncompliance etc. I can see why some guys want to retain control of the effects. I have gone out of my way to butter up many a sound guy. chat them up, feed them pizza, get them high, only to look up into the sound booth to see nothing but an empty chair by the 2nd song.
Uh, hey dude? whate happened to the delay on our 3rd song?
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Post by RefD » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:28 pm

calaverasgrandes wrote:I can see why some guys want to retain control of the effects. I have gone out of my way to butter up many a sound guy. chat them up, feed them pizza, get them high, only to look up into the sound booth to see nothing but an empty chair by the 2nd song.
Uh, hey dude? whate happened to the delay on our 3rd song?
that scenario is the pretty much the rule.
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Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:44 pm

calaverasgrandes wrote:I can see why some guys want to retain control of the effects. I have gone out of my way to butter up many a sound guy. chat them up, feed them pizza, get them high, only to look up into the sound booth to see nothing but an empty chair by the 2nd song.
Uh, hey dude? whate happened to the delay on our 3rd song?
You're right. That's really not cool. But, if you're gonna bring a set that needs choreographed effect changes, then you really have to either do it yourself from the stage, or get your own audio engineer. If you're gonna do it from the stage, you've either gotta be serious about it and make the investment (time and money) to do it right, or just accept that you're gonna cause problems for the engineer that reduce your chances of sounding good.

For me, as a house guy, the biggest problem is inconsistent and often unpredictable levels coming off of a mic-thru-a-stompbox. Right or wrong, it makes me want to give you LESS vocal in your monitor. And, if the set starts out sounding good and then later you hit some vocal effect and the vocals suddenly get really quiet, I'm not likely to go jacking up the levels to compensate. As soon as I do, you're gonna bypass that pedal and kill everybody with distortion and feedback.

It can be done. It's just that it requires a small investment, some careful consideration, and lots of practice to really do it right. If you're a "it doesn't really matter because we're lofi" kind of band, you probably shouldn't be messing with it. Or, run your vocals through a friggin' guitar amp like any good lofi band should. The people who will be running sound for you might not share your relaxed approach to putting unpredictable signals through their p.a. rigs.

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Post by calaverasgrandes » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:59 pm

i think a lot of folks dont appreciate the investment that a PA represents. Or how much of a pain in the ass it is to replace blown compression drivers!
But to be sure, you gotta differentiate between sound guys that are over protective of their rigs, and the ones that are just drunk and grouchy.
I should know, I have been both. Sometimes in the same night.
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."

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Post by ashcat_lt » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:11 pm

What the fucking fuck just fucking happened?

I too found it amusing that the dude talking about the use of the word fuck is giving me the finger.

Also found it amusing that our resident grammar nazi seems to have missed things like:
Holy Wolf wrote:Whats your avatar?
If you are serious about policing grammar around here, I'd ask you to take a quick look at the Rules of Netiquette. Part of getting along with one another in this world wide web involves not nit-picking each other on matters such as grammar and spelling. It might be reasonable for us to ask for translation if somebody came in here typing leetspeak, but I think we agree this is an "adult" forum where George Carlin would feel at home.

That said, I think the use of the word fucking in the "paragraph" in question was more of a stylistic choice. Seemed to me an attempt to voice frustration and/or exasperation with this thread in general. With that part I agree.

But I also agree with much of the rest of what has been said about ways to tackle this issue. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than a high output mic through a pedal, DI to the board. Great idea to have it be a second, effects only mic.

I agree that you'll likely have better results if it gets to a pre-amp before it gets to the pedal. I agree that some assholes (on stage) would be better off if they leave it to somebody else. I also agree that some assholes (off stage) can't be trusted with the responsibility. I also agree that a real lo-fi artist would run the thing through a guitar amp or vacuum cleaner or someshit.

I disagree with the need for a re-amp box in this scenario. I also disagree with the usage of the word "yo" as a form of address.:wink:

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Post by JGriffin » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:30 pm

ashcat_lt wrote: If you are serious about policing grammar around here, I'd ask you to take a quick look at the Rules of Netiquette. Part of getting along with one another in this world wide web involves not nit-picking each other on matters such as grammar and spelling. It might be reasonable for us to ask for translation if somebody came in here typing leetspeak, but I think we agree this is an "adult" forum where George Carlin would feel at home.
Not to nitpick, but that very same guide stresses the importance of good spelling and grammar, states that you will be judged by the quality of your writing, and requests that if you're shaky about it, that you please brush up.
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Post by calaverasgrandes » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:52 pm

cursewording effing f word, get over it. I just thought it was funny that he said fuckin like every sentence. I am more surprised that everybody got all over my nuts like ants on candy.
And I will defend to my death my right to say "yo". as in yo MTV raps. As in I live in the part of West Oakland Ice Cube used to come shoot videos in when he wanted something more ghetto than east LA or Compton.
Yo.
But really though. I think the best idea for a lo fi delay for the vocalist would be a tape delay. Its not impossible. Didnt Eddie Kravitz use actual reel to reel delays for his live shows a while back? just get a Sony r2r, or a 3head cassette deck and hack it to be a delay. It'll be lo fi, retro, and whats better it'll come out at -10 line level if its a cassette or consumer reel. Jeez a lot of em have mic amps too.
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."

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Post by Andy Peters » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:59 pm

calaverasgrandes wrote:I have gone out of my way to butter up many a sound guy. chat them up, feed them pizza, get them high, only to look up into the sound booth to see nothing but an empty chair by the 2nd song.
Uh, hey dude? whate happened to the delay on our 3rd song?
Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
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