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JGriffin
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Post by JGriffin » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:11 pm

Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
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"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno

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Post by jmiller » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:22 am

dwlb wrote:
Meriphew wrote:
jmiller wrote:
calaverasgrandes wrote:I'm surpised nobody mentioned the obvious solution. Get a hotter mic. Shure Betas are about 6 db hotter. Most vocal condensers are gonna be 12-20db hotter than a 58.
But how are you going to supply phantom power to a condenser that's plugged in to a pedal?
Beta 58 doesn't need phantom power.
A Beta 58 is also not a condenser, it's a dynamic.


Pardon me: a fucking Beta 58 is also not a fucking condenser, it's a fucking dynamic.

:wink:
Thanks, for a minute I thought I had seriously lost my memory.

But I hadn't considered the battery possibilities. I was thinking more about handheld condensers like the old SM85 (not fifty-eight; eighty-five).

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Post by Harry » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:38 am

Andy Peters wrote:
calaverasgrandes wrote:I have gone out of my way to butter up many a sound guy. chat them up, feed them pizza, get them high, only to look up into the sound booth to see nothing but an empty chair by the 2nd song.
Uh, hey dude? whate happened to the delay on our 3rd song?
Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a



fucking fuckity fuck :kotzen:

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Post by chris harris » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:33 am

ashcat_lt wrote:I disagree with the need for a re-amp box in this scenario. I also disagree with the usage of the word "yo" as a form of address.:wink:
Yo, ;)

You don't necessarily need a reamp box to do this. You just need a reamp box to do it right. A stompbox is going to perform better and more predictably when you feed it the kind of signal that it's expecting. I've seen a lot of stompboxes that aren't really happy with mic or line levels. They might pass signal. And, they might affect the sound. It also might not sound that bad to have the house engineer cranking the gain on the mackie or behringer board to compensate for your questionable signal.

My point is that if you're gonna do something to make it more difficult to mix your band, at the very least, try to do it right. I mean, a reamp box is a lot cheaper than paying someone to come out on the road and run sound for you. And, it's definitely worth it to know that you're feeding the house engineer a signal that they won't be confused by or put off by. I guarantee you that doing the small things to make it easier will definitely result in a better sound most of the time.

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Post by RefD » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:39 am

dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
well put, dwlb!
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Post by chris harris » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:59 am

RefD wrote:
dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
well put, dwlb!
I agree with that, too... but, c'mon... in lots of cases, at small venues, we're talking about some 18 year old kid from a local band who's making $40 for the whole night, running sound for 3 or 4 bands. You can't expect a house guy, wallowing in his misery, to give you results as good as someone you specifically hire to mix your band.

As a touring band, coming in with the "I don't care how unhappy you are with how much you're being paid to do this" kind of attitude is a recipe for disaster. Come into my club with that attitude. Not being sensitive to the fact that someone might just be busting their ass for peanuts to make your band sound good is incredibly lame.

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Post by RefD » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:15 am

subatomic pieces wrote:
RefD wrote:
dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
well put, dwlb!
I agree with that, too... but, c'mon... in lots of cases, at small venues, we're talking about some 18 year old kid from a local band who's making $40 for the whole night, running sound for 3 or 4 bands. You can't expect a house guy, wallowing in his misery, to give you results as good as someone you specifically hire to mix your band.
around here it's usually some embittered former musician with ponytail+bald spot who failed the audition to join The New Bohemians after Geffen fired everyone except Edie Brickell and is making sure everyone he meets hears about how unfair it is.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Post by thieves » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:34 am

i never have a problem with live sound here in cleveland, but i also go out of my way to make their job easier, so he/she can focus on the important stuff, like how good the mix sounds to the crowd and that we can all hear each other. also, a between song shout out to the club staff/tip your bartender sorta speech gets you free beers and asked back. at least in my experience.

that much said, i'd say if you're a vocalist who wants to do vocal effects in a live setting, the two options have already been discussed here:

1. get someone to run sound for you who knows where and when the effects go

2. invest a little bit in a setup that will give the house a consistent signal and minimal feedback.

fuck.
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Post by GooberNumber9 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:45 am

I think it's easy to get a house sound guy to help you out. Two magic ingredients:

1) A set list with notes: Wow. If any band gave me one of these I'd be able to make their shows so much better. I can't tell you how many times I've wished that I knew the band was going to play "In The Air Tonight" a song or two in advance so I could set up some awesome delays for them BEFORE the song starts. If you just put "150 ms vocal delay" next to the song you want the delay on, that would be a big part of it. Just saying to "Can you put delay on 'Superfly Rock?'" isn't going to help much. I can't remember what I had for dinner halfway through a set.

2) It might be nice if a band or two here or there inserted the sound guy in their list of thank-yous. I can't count the number of times the frontman has thanked pretty much everyone at the place except me. They thank the owners, the bartenders, the waitresses, the other bands, the audience, the lighting guys.... and on to the next song. Sigh. Yet I keep mixing and not complaining and I even give them a smile and a "That was a good set, you guys are really (insert honest compliment of whatever their strength is here)" at the end of the show.

And then we log on to our nice little pro audio forum and get grouped in with a bunch of loser sound guys who obviously don't care and just give us a bad name, and then the bands get so burned by loser sound guys that instead of trying to enable us to make them sound good, they insert an f-ing BOSS pedal in their lead vocal mic signal chain. Then they complain about how we can't give them a good monitor level without noise and feedback, and if we say "umm.. that Boss pedal might be messing us up there" they can only think to roll their eyes and complain later. Kill me now.

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Post by Andy Peters » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:01 pm

dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
OK, lemme rephrase (I'm a house guy ...):

I'm not sure that you can cure the sucky-house-guy problem by sheer bribery. The house guy who sits at the bar drinking beer instead of mixing the band that's onstage should be fired. The guy who likes only one type of music and gets annoyed or bored when acts of any other genre are playing should be fired.

But these sucky house guys get and keep their gigs because they are willing to work for shitty pay. And combine shitty pay with a parade of shitty acts and minimal mixing skills, and you've got the recipe for the sucky burnt-out sucky house guys.

So if you are in a band and you know that a venue has a sucky house guy, about all you can do to ensure that the mixer-person cares about your gig is to hire someone. Don't waste the pizza or weed or cash on the sucky guy!

We all know that it's impossible to polish a turd. But the good house guy will treat the crappy bands the same way that he treats the good bands. "Do unto others ..." and all of that. The attitude of the house mixer-person reflects upon the whole venue, so all house guys need to be aware of that.

-a
"On the internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

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Post by JGriffin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:52 pm

Andy Peters wrote:
dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
OK, lemme rephrase (I'm a house guy ...):

I'm not sure that you can cure the sucky-house-guy problem by sheer bribery. The house guy who sits at the bar drinking beer instead of mixing the band that's onstage should be fired. The guy who likes only one type of music and gets annoyed or bored when acts of any other genre are playing should be fired.

But these sucky house guys get and keep their gigs because they are willing to work for shitty pay. And combine shitty pay with a parade of shitty acts and minimal mixing skills, and you've got the recipe for the sucky burnt-out sucky house guys.

So if you are in a band and you know that a venue has a sucky house guy, about all you can do to ensure that the mixer-person cares about your gig is to hire someone. Don't waste the pizza or weed or cash on the sucky guy!

We all know that it's impossible to polish a turd. But the good house guy will treat the crappy bands the same way that he treats the good bands. "Do unto others ..." and all of that. The attitude of the house mixer-person reflects upon the whole venue, so all house guys need to be aware of that.

-a
Cool. I'm on board with that.

Just out of curiosity, how many house sound guys are okay with a band bringing in their own sound guy? I've definitely walked into places where that isn't welcome.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."

"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno

All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/

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Post by JGriffin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:05 pm

subatomic pieces wrote:
RefD wrote:
dwlb wrote:
Andy Peters wrote: Getting me high, feeding me pizza, or whatever else you do won't butter me up if you suck. However, hiring a good soundguy and paying him what he's worth might get better results.

Of course, if you don't suck, it makes it a lot easier for the house guy to care.

-a
If you're the house guy, how much you're paid isn't my problem; that's between you and the club owners. Just like when clients walk in to the studio I work at--my salary, however happy or unhappy I might be with it, doesn't give me permission to do a shitty job. Neither, incidentally, does my perception of how talented the performer is or how well-written the material is.
well put, dwlb!
I agree with that, too... but, c'mon... in lots of cases, at small venues, we're talking about some 18 year old kid from a local band who's making $40 for the whole night, running sound for 3 or 4 bands. You can't expect a house guy, wallowing in his misery, to give you results as good as someone you specifically hire to mix your band.

As a touring band, coming in with the "I don't care how unhappy you are with how much you're being paid to do this" kind of attitude is a recipe for disaster. Come into my club with that attitude. Not being sensitive to the fact that someone might just be busting their ass for peanuts to make your band sound good is incredibly lame.
I'll agree that an 18-year old kid (who legally shouldn't be in the bar in the first place) probably won't do as good a job as an older, more seasoned/experienced/ponytailed engineer. But I'm not going to let him off the hook about working hard and doing the best he can any more than I'd let a miserable, underpaid 18-year-old fuck up my order at Burger King. He can wallow all he wants when he's off the clock, just like the rest of us who hate our jobs.

And I didn't say I was gonna waltz into a club with an "I don't care how unhappy you are with how much you're being paid to do this" attitude. I'm going to be as pro as I can, and I expect to not have to put up with an "oh my god I'm so unhappy with how little I'm getting paid, so I'm gonna do a crappy job" attitude as well. Because, like I said, ultimately it's between you and your employer, and it's none of my business. I should not have to deal with it. But if you don't feel you're paid enough to do a good job, and are phoning it in all the time, then 1) find a new job, b) I don't want you running sound for my band, and iii) you're probably well on your way to getting fired.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."

"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno

All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/

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Post by RefD » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:23 pm

dwlb wrote:iii) you're probably well on your way to getting fired.
you're assuming their employer gives a damn.

as long as he/she doesn't cause a lawsuit or blow anything up, he/she could be ruining sound there for the rest of his/her life.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Post by JGriffin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:47 pm

RefD wrote:
dwlb wrote:iii) you're probably well on your way to getting fired.
you're assuming their employer gives a damn.

as long as he/she doesn't cause a lawsuit or blow anything up, he/she could be ruining sound there for the rest of his/her life.
You're right, I am making that assumption. But maybe it's a reasonable one if the sound guy's attitude makes bands stay away from the club, or if the shitty sound somehow drives away customers.

Having said that, I know it's really unlikely. Especially in this town, where the top clubs are the top clubs regardless of how bad the bands are treated, there're always gonna be bands who will give their left nut for a slot there. And a club owner or manager is never going to make the connection between bad mixes and lower numbers of patrons. He'll blame it on the bands first.

And ultimately a bar manager is concerned about selling beer, not showcasing good art. What shit does he give if the mix is bad? None shit, that's what.

Someone said something earlier about lumping all house sound guys in with the bad ones. I wanna make sure it's understood: I'm not doing that. I've worked with some really excellent sound guys and been very happy with the experience. The dudes I worked with Memorial Day Weekend were fantastic and made the whole gig great as far as I'm concerned. I'm just talking about the problem children.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."

"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno

All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/

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Post by kdarr » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:16 pm

dwlb wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many house sound guys are okay with a band bringing in their own sound guy? I've definitely walked into places where that isn't welcome.
I've never tried to make an "outside" sound guy feel unwelcome, but I have dealt with a couple that obviously didn't know shit from shinola. One of them got so stinking drunk waiting for his band to go on (they were last) that I had to babysit him for the whole set.

I have also been "spanked" by a hardcore pro coming in with a touring band who was waaaaaaay more experienced than me and basically told me I was an idiot for offering a suggestion as to what a problem we were having might have been. He was cool later, but man, he shut me down awful quick for trying to help.

I guess what I'm saying is that as a house guy, outside sound techs are a pain in the ass. :)

You can encounter some weird attitudes and it's important to have plenty of professional courtesy on tap, but always stand firm in your position that the owner put YOU in charge of the system, and you (should) know the quirks of room better than they do, no matter who they are.

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