Wow! Used MS on acoustic guitar - absolutely wonderful.

GooberNumber9 · Post by **GooberNumber9** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:29 am

I used Mid-Side for the first time last week and I love the sound, but I have a surprising problem which is that if I check it in mono the whole track almost disappears. I thought M/S was supposed to be good for mono compatibility but it seems to be terrible. I have mostly side mic and very little mid in the mix, and I'm assuming that when summed to mono the side channels cancel out, right? I "decoded" it using a duplicate track of the side mic which was polarity inverted. Then I sent mid to a stereo bus panned center, then normal polarity side to the left side of that bus and inverted polarity to the right side. Did I do that right?

For acoustics I like one omni around the 12th fret or two figure 8's (or maybe cardioids), one above the headstock pointed at the soundhole, and one below the lower bout pointed at the sound hole.

RoyMatthews · Post by **RoyMatthews** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:47 am

GooberNumber9 wrote:I used Mid-Side for the first time last week and I love the sound, but I have a surprising problem which is that if I check it in mono the whole track almost disappears. I thought M/S was supposed to be good for mono compatibility but it seems to be terrible. I have mostly side mic and very little mid in the mix, and I'm assuming that when summed to mono the side channels cancel out, right? I "decoded" it using a duplicate track of the side mic which was polarity inverted. Then I sent mid to a stereo bus panned center, then normal polarity side to the left side of that bus and inverted polarity to the right side. Did I do that right?

If you have mostly side and very little mid signals then in mono you're only going to have very little mid in the mix. What I would try is mix in mono with the mid signal. Then I'd try bring in side tracks and monitor in stereo to get the side levels.

For acoustics I like one omni around the 12th fret or two figure 8's (or maybe cardioids), one above the headstock pointed at the soundhole, and one below the lower bout pointed at the sound hole.

Are you doing this as an M/S setup? The Mid and Side capsule need to be as close to each other as possible.

GooberNumber9 · Post by **GooberNumber9** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:14 am

RoyMatthews wrote:Are you doing this as an M/S setup? The Mid and Side capsule need to be as close to each other as possible.

No, I just like the sound of figure 8s sometimes. I might be crazy but I notice a significant change of character in multi-pattern mics depending on the pattern. Most likely I'm just hearing more or less room and/or proximity effect.

I did M/S on electric guitar using two combo amps and a stereo uni-vibe clone. I spent about an hour tweaking the amp sounds and positioning the mics and when my girlfriend told me she "had" to move the mics... well, we're still together, that's what's important.

Thanks for the clarification on my mono compatibility issues.

RoyMatthews · Post by **RoyMatthews** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:30 am

GooberNumber9 wrote: No, I just like the sound of figure 8s sometimes. I might be crazy but I notice a significant change of character in multi-pattern mics depending on the pattern. Most likely I'm just hearing more or less room and/or proximity effect.

There's definite changes is tone with different patterns. I think there may be an increase in Proximity effect as the pattern gets tighter. But don't quote me on that.

Manufacturers will show the different frequency responses of each pattern for their mics on a chart included with the paper work.

newfuturevintage · Post by **newfuturevintage** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:17 pm

themagicmanmdt wrote: Then, what the hell. Out comes my recent favorite TOMB ribbon, and MS gets a try.

Magic.

Try it on lead vocals sometime!

Muxlow · Post by **Muxlow** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:41 am

This may be a dumb newb question, but several posts are mention very specific miking positions.

If mic position is that sensitive, how do you deal with people moving around while they play, adjust their junk, or god forbid take a bathroom break? Do screw the mics to their kneecap and headbone or just hope they sit still?

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:04 am

These days I don't think about it much. When I first started recording seriously, I'd obsess over mic placement...like move the mic in 1/2" increments until it was "perfect". Now I figure if it's close, the instrument sounds interesting, and the performance is good, then I'm happy.

Marlowe · Post by **Marlowe** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:29 am

How is M/S done? I know the microphone side of the process but it's the "conversion" part that has made me shy away.

What do you need to do to the signals once the mics are set up?

Marlowe

JWL · Post by **JWL** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:48 pm

I love MS on acoustic guitar, especially if the part is doubled. In this instance, I'll stand to the left for one pass, then to the right for the double track. When you decode the tracks, bam. Instant double spread, one performance on the left, one on the right, plenty of room in the center for the vocals. Works great.

Marlowe, to decode you can either get a hardware MS decoder, or do it manually:

Bring up the M mic on one channel, panned to the center.

Bring up the S mic on 2 channels (ie, clone the track in a DAW). Pan one hard left, and the other hard right. Flip the phase on the R mic. Then, in the DAW, group the 2 faders so that they are always equal.

Bring up the grouped S pair to 0dB, and the M channel to 0dB. You should hear a great stereo spread. If you want to hear more mono, then decrease the grouped pair; if you want to hear a wider spread, then decrease the M channel.

Marlowe · Post by **Marlowe** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:33 am

Thanks! It's way easier than I thought.

tonic889 · Post by **tonic889** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:23 am

I noticed on the WikiRecording page for Mid-Side it says that

The "Side" microphone must be a figure-8 microphone, and should normally be as closely matched as possible to the Mid.

How important is it to have matching mics? What will happen if I have two mics that don't really match (say, a Nady Ribbon and an ADK LDC).

JWL · Post by **JWL** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:04 pm

It's not essential that they aren't matched. But if they aren't, then increasing the stereo spread (by using more S mic as opposed to M mic) will change the tone of the recording, more toward the S mic. Whereas if you go more mono (ie, the M mic) then the M mic tone will dominate.

In other words, if the mics aren't matched, then adjusting the stereo spread also adjusts the tone.

BTW, I do love using a ribbon as the S mic and a condenser for the M on acoustic guitar. Though be careful with some ribbons, the figure-8 pattern isn't always symmetrical (ie, oO rather than OO if that makes sense).

0-it-hz · Post by **0-it-hz** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:06 pm

Yeah.... Fig-8 will have a LOT of off-axis coloration while cardioid and omni patterns of the same mic will have less. I've used two 414s for M/S and been really stunned at how different the Fig-8 sounds versus the cardioid.

I really like an omni M mic as well.... BIG sound, and you can get up real close .

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:10 am

I use MS all the time. In fact, I recorded classical guitar and flute yesterday and used an MS setup on the acoustic guitar. I also find myself using it on drums a good bit and occasionally, I'll use it on electric guitar. I also love it on congas.

I just took delivery of one of Greg Norman's MS Matrix boxes (that he builds for Electrical Audio) and it's a total joy to use.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

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Wow! Used MS on acoustic guitar - absolutely wonderful.

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