EP, LP, and in between

[aaronaustin]

Not sure where to post this, feel free to move it if it doesn't fit...

I'm recording a bunch of tunes with my band this summer. Shooting for drum tracks on about 30 tunes. Yes, this is silly and unreasonable. Then, when the band isn't available to record in late summer and fall, I'm gonna finish the rest them and release albums periodically.

That said, I've thought about releasing 4 eps with 6 songs each, 3 cds with 8 songs each, or two cds with 12 songs each. For some reason I'm leaning toward the 8 song albums. It seems like it would be a nice length (a lot of my songs clock in around 4 min). Is that an EP or a CD? It's kinda in-between. What is the "standard" for a full length cd anyway? Anybody got any nice anecdotes or suggestions?

As an aside, I'm planning on releasing the cds in little books (letter size paper folded in half and stapled) with some stories, drawings, song charts, etc. Maybe that will make up for two songs.

[@?,*???&?]

While I firmly agree that good drum tracks are essential to have a good song, I do not think haphazardly recording miscellaneous drum tracks and planning on releasing them all as songs is necessarily a good idea.

The components to a song are a lyric sung to a melody in a particular rhythm over a chord progression.

Do you have any songs written?

[Judas Jetski]

I tend to favor a number of shorter releases over one or two long ones. Leave 'em wanting more...

Another idea is to record all 30 songs or whatever, and when you're finished recording cherry-pick the best 15 or 16. Everyone will think you're a total genius and you can save the remaining songs for your 20th anniversary box set retrospective.

[aaronaustin]

While I firmly agree that good drum tracks are essential to have a good song, I do not think haphazardly recording miscellaneous drum tracks and planning on releasing them all as songs is necessarily a good idea.

The components to a song are a lyric sung to a melody in a particular rhythm over a chord progression.

Do you have any songs written?

Maybe I wasn't clear...These are all complete songs. They've been written over the last several years. My goal is to get the drums recorded for these while my drummer is available, then finish one album at a time. We're not just randomly recording grooves. For the style of music we're doing, I agree, that's not a good idea.

I tend to favor a number of shorter releases over one or two long ones. Leave 'em wanting more...

Another idea is to record all 30 songs or whatever, and when you're finished recording cherry-pick the best 15 or 16. Everyone will think you're a total genius and you can save the remaining songs for your 20th anniversary box set retrospective.

I would love to look like a genius once.

[@?,*???&?]

While I firmly agree that good drum tracks are essential to have a good song, I do not think haphazardly recording miscellaneous drum tracks and planning on releasing them all as songs is necessarily a good idea.

The components to a song are a lyric sung to a melody in a particular rhythm over a chord progression.

Do you have any songs written?

Maybe I wasn't clear...These are all complete songs. They've been written over the last several years. My goal is to get the drums recorded for these while my drummer is available, then finish one album at a time. We're not just randomly recording grooves. For the style of music we're doing, I agree, that's not a good idea.

I would love to look like a genius once.

Are the songs any good? I mean, they are your songs, you can't be objective. Are they any good?

Young DIY'ers run screaming from real feedback. That's why things like myspace exist- so that one can choose the feedback they desire.

From a general song-writing standpoint, www.ourstage.com or www.garageband.com can at least give you some feedback on whether you're any good at your craft.

As for your last statement. Yikes and ouch. Are you serious?

[evengangstersreadtapeop]

Not sure where to post this, feel free to move it if it doesn't fit...

I'm recording a bunch of tunes with my band this summer. Shooting for drum tracks on about 30 tunes. Yes, this is silly and unreasonable. Then, when the band isn't available to record in late summer and fall, I'm gonna finish the rest them and release albums periodically.

That said, I've thought about releasing 4 eps with 6 songs each, 3 cds with 8 songs each, or two cds with 12 songs each. For some reason I'm leaning toward the 8 song albums. It seems like it would be a nice length (a lot of my songs clock in around 4 min). Is that an EP or a CD? It's kinda in-between. What is the "standard" for a full length cd anyway? Anybody got any nice anecdotes or suggestions?

As an aside, I'm planning on releasing the cds in little books (letter size paper folded in half and stapled) with some stories, drawings, song charts, etc. Maybe that will make up for two songs.

Most vinyl pressing places recommend no more than 15 minutes per side of a 12", so I guess standard for an LP is about a half hour. EPs are about half of that. Now that CDs are the norm it seems like a CDEP is about 20-25 and a full length album is 40. That being said, "Is that an EP or a CD" is kind of odd.. I mean, if it is on a CD then it is a CD.

[wedge]

I think that the length of a "recording project" -- the number of songs, but most importantly, running time -- is something that definitely can stand a good noodling, per artist.

I may be quaint, but I look at an ALBUM as a Novel, and an EP as a short story, or the like. In other words, for various reasons, these are basic lengths that feed an artistic need that the artist *and* listener tend to favor, for the most part.

Having a 9 minute CD or a 90 minute CD would both seem preposterous to most.

My band is toying with the tweener length of 8 songs, and it feels odd to me. It's as if, it should either be a nice bitee taste, to hook listeners for further projects (hopefully a full length), or a full, satisfying meal that lasts a normal commute drive time...

[aaronaustin]

Are the songs any good? I mean, they are your songs, you can't be objective. Are they any good?

Young DIY'ers run screaming from real feedback. That's why things like myspace exist- so that one can choose the feedback they desire.

I think my songwriting has gotten quite a bit better in the past couple of years. I'm finding my voice. "Good" is so subjective. The guys in my band are better musicians than myself and are pretty seasoned. I listen to them a lot. When the band starts working on a song, you can tell if it's working or not. My mom loves my music. She says it's the best she's heard.

As for your last statement. Yikes and ouch. Are you serious?

I was just replying to Andy Smash's comment about looking like a genius when you release an anniversary box set. My comment about looking like a genius was just a bit of self-deprecating humor. I would, in fact, like to look like a genius at some point in my life--figuratively, of course. Guess it didn't work.

I may be quaint, but I look at an ALBUM as a Novel, and an EP as a short story, or the like. In other words, for various reasons, these are basic lengths that feed an artistic need that the artist *and* listener tend to favor, for the most part.

I like that thought process. I suppose when you get to song 8 and it feels like the story is over, then you're done. Perhaps some projects need a longer d'enouement. That really helps when you think of it like a story, then you start noticing the pace and conflict and all that as well. Nice analogy.

I suppose I'm wondering if our soundbyte society may respond better to shorter works? I don't seem to have a lot of time to listen to entire albums anymore. Thanks for all the replies, this is interesting.

[Seamonster]

I may be quaint, but I look at an ALBUM as a Novel, and an EP as a short story, or the like. In other words, for various reasons, these are basic lengths that feed an artistic need that the artist *and* listener tend to favor, for the most part.

I like that thought process. I suppose when you get to song 8 and it feels like the story is over, then you're done.

Along those lines, I would expect to determine the ultimate breakdown based on how the songs fit together, whether by literary relationship, sonic differences or similarities, dance/party vs. quiet reflection, etc. Not that you're necessarily making "concept albums," but that your material may naturally want to organize itself into groups.

You probably won't/can't know what those groupings will be until you've actually recorded and mixed the songs, because each song will take on some unexpected character or quality as you go along. Sure, you can have some preliminary ideas on how they'll fit together, but if you can afford the luxury of maintaining some ambiguity and letting the songs assert their own natural resonances among each other, you may be more satisfied in the end. ("Hi, I'm Song A, and I'd really like to be snuggled between Song B and Song D.")

Practically, once the songs are recorded (or at least at the rough mix stage) you can line them up in your burning software or iTunes and try different sequences.

Oh yeah, I'd say that these days 35+ mins is an album, less than 25 is an EP. Good luck on the package that clocks in at 30 mins.

Hoagie Hill

[@?,*???&?]

Are the songs any good? I mean, they are your songs, you can't be objective. Are they any good?

Young DIY'ers run screaming from real feedback. That's why things like myspace exist- so that one can choose the feedback they desire.

I think my songwriting has gotten quite a bit better in the past couple of years. I'm finding my voice. "Good" is so subjective. The guys in my band are better musicians than myself and are pretty seasoned. I listen to them a lot. When the band starts working on a song, you can tell if it's working or not. My mom loves my music. She says it's the best she's heard.

Check out this highly rated demo on Garageband.

http://www.garageband.com/song?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaShaVe3aw

You should get demos up to get some objective feedback on your songs.

Wouldn't hurt, would it?

[kung_fu_elvis]

I would say, lay them out, and see how they fit together then (as others have mentioned above).

If no 'theme' emerges to you, perhaps a case of beer, some objective friends, and a night of listening may point you in the right direction.

I myself have friends that are my sounding board, people that have listened to my stuff develop over the past years... and can/will give me opinions quite honestly.

I would try to let the material dictate, but in the event you lose some objectivity, then call some friends.

Garageband is nice to get unsolicited advice... I find if I get too far into a project, I start to feel like I'm in a bit of a bubble... Garageband is a great way to pop that bubble.

The only drawback is that you need to do (I think) 10 pairs of reviews before you can post a song for review... with 30 songs, that's a lot of reviewing...

[@?,*???&?]

The only drawback is that you need to do (I think) 10 pairs of reviews before you can post a song for review... with 30 songs, that's a lot of reviewing...

Ah, the impatience of youth and the search for quick gratification. The Garageband method teaches you that it's not all about you, and you also develop skills as a critical listener determining why a song does not work or not. Totally worth it as opposed to being mired in a completely self-centered domain.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

Are the songs any good? I mean, they are your songs, you can't be objective. Are they any good?

quit being a douchebag.

if i write a song and i think it's good, but you don't, which one of us is right?

it's ridiculous to think someone can't be objective about their own work. of course you can. presuming you have a brain, it's not unreasonable to think you'd be able to tell which of your songs were better than others. sure it can't hurt to get an outside opinion, but c'mon. i can't really believe you are advising someone to not do anything until they get it reviewed by a bunch of strangers. that's retarded. the guy just wants to record some songs he wrote...

[@?,*???&?]

Are the songs any good? I mean, they are your songs, you can't be objective. Are they any good?

quit being a douchebag.

if i write a song and i think it's good, but you don't, which one of us is right?

it's ridiculous to think someone can't be objective about their own work. of course you can. presuming you have a brain, it's not unreasonable to think you'd be able to tell which of your songs were better than others. sure it can't hurt to get an outside opinion, but c'mon. i can't really believe you are advising someone to not do anything until they get it reviewed by a bunch of strangers. that's retarded. the guy just wants to record some songs he wrote...

But he said it himself- he is seeking that 'thread' of a sound. An artist has to have a keen sense of that to achieve anything artistically worthwhile. That comes through writing many, many songs and then beginning hear how similar phrasing of vocals and melodic invention fuses to present cohesion of style.

Sorry to sound like such a skeptic, this DAW world we live has made people think they're better way beyond their talents. It just ain't so. Over on the Peopleskills thread you can tune in to totalpopstar.com and watch what really has to happen to make a contemporary hit in real time.

http://www.totalpopstar.com/?index#winners

[fossiltooth]

Shooting for drum tracks on about 30 tunes.

I think you said it all right there! I guess anything can work. But in my experience, it seems like you'd be setting yourself up to under-realize all of the songs.


Sorry MoreSpace, but I have to agree with JR's point for once, if not his attitude. Self-Editing is good. Have you ever heard the Frank Black solo album "Teenager of the Year"? Most people haven't. That's because there's 22 songs on it and I doubt if more than 8 of those songs deserved to see the light of day. Actually, that's probably being generous. Most of them aren't very good, and the ones that are decent are pretty far from living up to their potential due to lack of focus.

This is the guy who wrote most of the material for the Pixies! Ain't no hack. 22 songs. It feels like a giant awful demo. The song "Abstract Plain" s pretty good. The album just gets less and less inspiring as it goes along. Of course, this is just one man's opinion.