Should I charge?

[Patrick McAnulty]

I'm working things out with a kid I know who is in a "heavy" band. They are looking to record 3-5 songs with me and I'm not exactly sure how much to charge them, or if I even should. I'm kinda young still pretty inexperienced when it comes to recording, but I know that I could produce a product that would not let them down.

So far what I'm thinking is that they can pay day rates with me. Something like 10 hours for 75 dollars or something for tracking. Mixing would be like 25/song. I'm not sure if I'm blowing smoke up anyone's ass with these figures, but I'd like some input from more experienced engineers/producers/whatever title you may hold.

I have some music up on www.myspace.com/patagainstthemachine but I'd rather just upload the actual mp3 to some hosting site. The most recent recordings I have on the myspace are "Easy Tiger" and "Among Rattlesnakes."

[fossiltooth]

No one should work for free. Recording bands is work.

Additionally, I find that people are more focused, more motivated, more productive, and better at finishing projects when there's money on the line.

As far as what to charge:

Answer A) You're worth whatever you truly believe you are. If you believe you're worth $25 a mix, then that's what you can expect to get. If you truly rationally believe you're worth $2500 a mix, you'll probably get it, at least some of the time.

Answer B) You're worth whatever people will pay you. Ideally, if you're honest with yourself, this should be close to the same number as in Answer A.

[gregnrom]

Tell them you'll do it for free. When you're all done, and they want their CD or whatever, tell them they owe you $900. They will get all upset, but a day or so later, they will cough it up.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Tell them you'll do it for free. When you're all done, and they want their CD or whatever, tell them they owe you $900. They will get all upset, but a day or so later, they will cough it up.

This is a bad idea on so many levels that I'm not going to say anything more than that this is a bad idea on so many levels.

Charge them something. Having even a little money on the line makes everyone step up to the plate and perform at a higher level. If you give the impression that you are half assed people will fall to that level. The other problem with being the "cheap" guy is that you will kill yourself to do a good job for little to no money and the next time the band is going to record and has a bigger budget they'll go to the more expensive guy. After all, he must be better because he costs more.

[rwc]

Yes.

I didn't read your post. I just read the topic.

Yes.

Here's the thing that makes audio different than every other profession. If you setup a cheaper linux server, say on a dual core 3 year old opteron, and it works but gets slow sometimes, you can provide cheaper hosting, than the people on the huge server farms. If a store gets slightly lower sales one year, the manager is still paid, and found to be useful.. just the company makes less money.

However, there is no WORTH to bad sound! It either is spectacular, or isn't!

There is no "discount" for crappy sound. Crappy sound is not worth a dime - or anyone's time.

This isn't like selling an open box item at a store for decreased price. You can't use a discount to justify an uninspired recording.


If you do a production for $1000, where it would usually be $8000 for the level of quality and work, people will still expect the $8000 worth of work. No one says Hey, the kick is inaudible in the mix, the snare sounds a little weak, and my guitar has too much reverb on it.. Oh, this guy's only $10/hr.. ok, nevermind! It's ok!

They will expect it to be fucking great regardless. Even if it doesn't sound like a true recorded-at-RCA-studios masterpiece, it will need to be to a certain level of quality. People feel that when they invest their time and effort into something, that they should be given something in return. They're right.

As long as you are doing it; regardless of price, they will expect it to be amazing. So you might as well charge enough for you to be able to do it the way you want, at a studio that allows you to do it the way you want, with the gear you want, and have money left over for food, beer and rent.

I never take the "I just don't have the money" excuse anymore, for 90% of all cases, except for working with good friends. Bullshit! in NYC there are a lot of people living 3 to an apartment in bad neighborhoods, who have iPhones, MP3 players, and really nice shoes.. but that "can't afford" recording for more than $10/hr. It's crap. It's all about priorities. Instead of making the situation cheaper, work on finding ways to make yourself relevant in the band's list of priorities, so you will trump Apple's newest gadget when everyone in the band has $600 of disposable income to spend irresponsibly.

I spent a lot of time dicking around on deals trying to make stuff cheaper. In the end, it made more sense to bury myself in whatever I was doing so I would become good enough at it that I was high on one's list of priorities. I can also pay rent solely on sound related stuff since I made this decision.

I met my first TOMBer today, working upstairs from me where there was about 3-4x as much money being tossed around, compared to where I am; in the same building that has no ventilation in the elevators, rampant drug use/urinating in the emergency stairwell, and a total lack of restroom maintenance excluding a certain 5 hour time block during the week. It's not because he's cheap, it's because he's that fucking good!

There are a lot of plumbers who make $150/hr, because people really prioritize having a working kitchen sink, a shower, and a toilet. Make them value what you bring to a project.

I don't think I'm being crazy with this.

[rwc]

Also, consider this.

Is the band going to be more prepared when there's $60-$110/hr on the line?

Or is the band going to be more serious when your rate is 30% the going price of the cheapest local rehearsal facility?

Think about it.

Recording studios that are cheaper than similarly equipt rehearsal facilities are begging for uninspired performances from unrehearsed musicians.

Most musicians I meet who can't afford to pay more than $7.50/hr for tracking aren't good musicians. Can a good band really, between 4-6 people, not pool together $10/hr each to cut a few songs? If they were they'd be sweeping up the good gigs and have some side cash to record something semi-properly. When I started out I thought if I were cheaper, I'd get all the good musicians, diamonds in the rough, that couldn't afford to be in a real studio, or even semi-real studio.. but this is a flawed premise. If they are amazing musicians, with real drive and determination to make a kickass record, they'd find their way into a decent fucking studio!

and they'd sure question why this guy is only charging me $7.50 an hour? competing on price you will keep you at that level because once you raise your rates, aka the natural progression in any career, you're done. If you don't charge a certain amount, people will doubt the quality of your space and work rather than go wow, omg, I can't believe we can get studio time for this! They'll think hmm.. $20/hr, in one of the most expensive metropolitan areas in the country. that must be a rat infested shithole!

[rwc]

I know that I could produce a product that would not let them down.

On that note.. you've answered your own question.

[Patrick McAnulty]

Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone! I was gone at work all day and wasn't sure if anyone would respond.

Here's some more info.

I'm 19 years old and my small studio is in the basement of my parent's house where I live until September(while still being supported by the rents)

I don't think I could justify costing as much as "real" studios, because of my lack of gear and general experience.

The band isn't very well off, and neither am I right now due to future rent, school, car payments and some legal trouble.

I don't want to sell myself short, but I also don't want to charge too much.

[Patrick McAnulty]

my last post sucked. this one prolly will too. Long night at work.


So after reading the replies again I think I have a solution.

I'm going to record them for free and then when the want the cd, I'll just make them give me all of their gear!


win win, right? I can pawn that shit off on ebay, and they'll make sure to offer to pay next time.





there will be a next time......right?


lol

[percussion boy]

It sounds like you're not sure what you're worth, so what if you make them a great deal on the first song (but still charge them something) and tell them this is your introductory rate? At the same time, quote them a higher rate up front (your "normal" rate) for any additional tunes that they decide to do after hearing the first one.

You'll have to weigh "I want the money" vs. "I still need all the experience I can get" when pricing yourself.

[cgarges]

Tell them you'll do it for free. When you're all done, and they want their CD or whatever, tell them they owe you $900. They will get all upset, but a day or so later, they will cough it up.

This is a bad idea on so many levels that I'm not going to say anything more than that this is a bad idea on so many levels.

I'm, um, pretty sure that Greg's just kidding.

I'd say find out what similarly-equipped folks in your area are charging and come up with a rate based loosely on that. If you're in a position where you're really learning the basics or it takes you a while to do stuff, then you should charge a little on the low side of the average for places similar to yours. If you feel like you've been doing it longer or have some special skill set or equipment that similar places don't have, then charge a little more. Once you start developing a client base, you can adjust your rates accordingly, but remember that it's WAY easier to raise your rates when you get busy if people are saying good things about what a bargain you are than it is to lower your rates with people running around saying that you're expensive.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Patrick McAnulty]

Those are all good points. I'm still learning things and I'm afraid that if I charge them a lot per hour then surely something will botch the recording session and things will slow down, wasting their money when it shouldn't. I'm sure it won't happen, but then again, I've never done a paying gig, and I've only recorded a few songs for bands. I mostly just recording stuff on my own these days since everyone has moved away to college and the music scene here has died.

I also live in Marengo, Illinois. The closest studio to me is at least 40 minutes away in Rockford. The band lives in the Naperville area; like Aurora, Yorkville.... So there are probably plenty of studios near them, but none will have the amazing gear I do. ?_?

I have an Audix Fusion 7 drum mic set, two Rode NT5's, a D6, 57, and am borrowing a Groove Tubes LDC from a friend for vox. I have a Presonus Digimax LT and an older Firepod for additional inputs going into my Digi002. Then also some cheap compressor I pretty much only use on vocals just to make sure the dynamics going into PT are somewhat controlled if the vocalist pushes a bit too hard.

so if I charge what a real studio does, I'm sure I'll get laughed at.

[Spark]

You should be able to work with that gear. If your really worried about it though, you could try to work out a barter deal where you tell them you will record a set number of songs for the price of a certain piece of gear.

[Patrick McAnulty]

You should be able to work with that gear. If your really worried about it though, you could try to work out a barter deal where you tell them you will record a set number of songs for the price of a certain piece of gear.

Five songs for the price of my MacPro. Oh that would be niiiiiiiiiiiiiice. lol

*sends band credit card bill for recording their full length

[Gentleman Jim]

P Mackey wrote:

I'm still learning things and I'm afraid that if I charge them a lot per hour then surely something will botch the recording session and things will slow down, wasting their money when it shouldn't.

So if you hit a glitch that you feel is directly attributable to your rookie status you can always credit them back or 'stop the clock.' That way you get to quote a good rate for you while assuring them that you're reasonable and magnanimous.

I would, however, caution against telling the band while negotiating that you plan to do so. It's one thing to be seen as a good guy for admitting your minor faults and crediting them, it's entirely another situation to have to make the case for why you shouldn't have to cut them breaks over and over because the guitar player broke a string, or the drummer needed to run out for a slice of pizza. It should be strictly at your discretion - offered, not debated.