Converter confusion....

[farview]

Personally, I'd probably just get a new interface. I don't use digi, but I think the 003 uses the same converters as the apogees.

I think there are only a couple of actual converter chips that everyone uses. The difference is in the circuitry supporting it and the analog path leading to and from it.

[GooberNumber9]

Interesting that you chouse one of the simplest things to do in the analog domain as an example of "what you cant do analog." Reverse is one key press away on a studer A827, and one flip of the reel or edit mode away on almost any professional tape machine ever made.

Oh, I didn't even know a Studer had the equivalent of audio regions, much less a one-button way to reverse them. Does it do crossfades? Maybe I better go analog...

What I really meant was "can't do with an analog console and outboard while using the HD24 as the tape machine". At least, I don't know a way to do it. I don't think the HD24 plays backwards (the manual is kinda lame so who knows what it can do that I don't know about). Even if it does, you would need TWO of them to actually create a reversed track.

Is that what you're talking about with the Studer? Hitting reverse playback on one while recording the reversed sound on another and then bouncing it back? I'm not sure if that's really a great substitute for highlighting a section of audio and clicking "Audiosuite -> Reverse" and then being done.

[Alex Netick]

There's about maybe an inch or two of analog path in the rosetta; I can't conceivably see how that could make any difference. As for the "clock," I've done blind tests myself with the apogee and a Layla 24, and I couldn't hear any difference there either. I'm pretty unconvinced that for most people an expensive outboard converter is a wise way to spend your money, unless you've got money to burn. Personally, I regret buying the rosetta when I did, but that's just me. I still think you're better off just buying an 003, and forgetting about an outboard converter.

Personally, I'd probably just get a new interface. I don't use digi, but I think the 003 uses the same converters as the apogees.

I think there are only a couple of actual converter chips that everyone uses. The difference is in the circuitry supporting it and the analog path leading to and from it.

[chris harris]

If you can't hear the difference between apogee and the 002 or 003 converters, then you probably shouldn't waste your money on an upgrade. You should also not waste any more time worrying about gear until you spend some time training your ears to recognize differences like that. Upgrading (training) your ears would probably be a better way to spend you time for now.

[rwc]

a good way to train your ears with converters is to rent and listen to the best, and worst.

003 to the midrange line from a midrange converter company is not the best way to compare.

something like an 888 into a difficult load compared to a lavry gold, or radar, would be great.

just remember the more time you spend doing this, the less time you'll spend on everything else..

[Dan Phelps]

I have had a Rosetta 800 on loan for a few months now and I have to say that I have experienced a pretty drastic difference from the 002. The difference is audible somewhat in the individual tracks (particularly regarding the detail of room "space" in the sounds), but it's most dramatic to me in the way that a bunch of tracks sit together in a mix. Just seems like less struggle than getting a bunch of 002 recorded tracks to play nice together.

But I think that would be a common experience for any major upgrade in converters.

[roygbiv]

Sorry to be asking semi-off topic newb/gearslut question, but does anyone know how the converters on the Aardvark Aark24 spec out?

I ask because that's what I have, and I've been wondering if I should be looking into upgrading them at some point in the (distant/not so distant) future. I have two, which gives me 16 channels of 24bit/44k.

I've read that when they came out, they were considered ok (for prosumer stuff). But, they came quite a while ago, so they may no longer be considered that good by modern standards. I don't have a lot of hands on experience with any high-end modern computer recording hardware/interfaces.

thx,

roy

[KilledByAlbany]

There's about maybe an inch or two of analog path in the rosetta; I can't conceivably see how that could make any difference.

Digital converters are stunningly fickle in regards to build, probably moreso than anything else you will find racked up in a studio. The quality of the analog stage, the specific ratings of each individual piece and their proximity to each other, the type, placement & potential crosstalk of a power supply, and about a million other obnoxiously small things come together to make even a modest AD or DA converter. While there are only a handful of chips suitable for converting quality audio floating around out there, getting the cleanest signal to them and from them is the hard and expensive part of conversion.

Most of the problem people have with the 002 and 003 (and a lot of other prosumer units) conversion stages stem from them being poorly decoupled from the power supply, which is pretty cheap, rather than from the converter chips themselves.

[rwc]

There's about maybe an inch or two of analog path in the rosetta; I can't conceivably see how that could make any difference. As for the "clock," I've done blind tests myself with the apogee and a Layla 24, and I couldn't hear any difference there either. I'm pretty unconvinced that for most people an expensive outboard converter is a wise way to spend your money, unless you've got money to burn. Personally, I regret buying the rosetta when I did, but that's just me. I still think you're better off just buying an 003, and forgetting about an outboard converter.

Personally, I'd probably just get a new interface. I don't use digi, but I think the 003 uses the same converters as the apogees.

I think there are only a couple of actual converter chips that everyone uses. The difference is in the circuitry supporting it and the analog path leading to and from it.

the tweeter is only an inch of my speaker.. I don't see how it could make much of a difference.

Have you seen how much circuitry is inside coveted gear? this is the last way I would actually judge the merit of a design.

er.

there is a lot in a converter that can make a difference. most cheap converters sound better run at lower levels because they can't handle professional levels. until you get into the radar or 1K/channel range, it's hard to find a converter with a well designed power supply.

some NECs might use the same lens as a plextor, but that doesn't make the dvd burner the same.

[Alex Netick]

I don't know -- maybe it's just me. I bought the apogee rosettas a few years ago, and was generally pretty disappointed with the difference they made. If you have less than 20 or 30 grand to spend on your studio, I could think of a million things I'd rather buy. But that's just me. Personally, I'd advise against them, because most of the converters on prosumer interfaces are pretty damned good today. I'd much rather have a good microphone or guitar or something else that will hold it's value and then some, rather than some piece of digital tomfoolery that will be worthless in several years.

[linus]

Budget is an important part of the equatioon to consider. Not just the budget for the convertors but for everything else too.

If my budget willl only allow for a Berhinger mixer and compressor in an untreated cramped corner of a noisey apartment then I probably don't need to worry about this convertor verses that convertor as much. I probably won't be able to hear the difference as the rest of the system won't be able to reproduce the subtle differences.

I have a pretty low budget personal studio. It's in it's own space and I've done what I can afford to treat the room. I mix a combined ITB/OTB style. My muting and some minor volume changes are made ITB then I buss tracks to 8 outs as I have an Apogee Rosetta 800. Those 8 channels on my board get various tape echo/reverb processing. Most of my EQing is done on my board (an ORAM BEQ 8, 24 channels). I send the mixed stereo signal back in the Apogee to record.

At times I'd like to add a DA16x or swiitch over to a Lynx Aroura 16 to have more outs but I can't justify the added expense. I really want other stuff instead (buying an apt, I want a plate reverb)
The way I'm working now works for me. I'm getting music recorded and mixed. I think it rocks. That's the whole purpose.

I'm making what I have work and trying to to keep my desire for more gear from getting in the way.

[GooberNumber9]

Sorry to be asking semi-off topic newb/gearslut question, but does anyone know how the converters on the Aardvark Aark24 spec out?

I had one for a couple years and liked it a lot. It definitely sounded better than the Digidesign stuff I've had (Mbox, 002, 003), and almost as good as my DAL CardDeluxe, which was awesome.

[roygbiv]

Thanks Goober

The reason I asked was the Aark24 sounds pretty good to me, but Aardvark went out of business years ago, so the driver situation is pretty dodgy. Thus, they can be a bit of a hassle to get up and running (they don't seem to run well on XP2 with SATA drives), and thus you are stuck using them on an older computer, etc.

However, if they sound as good as some of the newer prosumer stuff, I'll stick with this arrangement and just transfer files to a faster computer for fancy digital manglizing.

[calaverasgrandes]

The analog stage preceding the AD conversion is crucial. I had a few hundred exta bucks after I ditched my mackie mixer so I got my MOTU 828 upgraded by Black Lion Audio.
The difference is startling to say the least. I suddenly have actual treble and bass frequencies! There is a lot more edge and impact to sounds. This is from a simple opamp swap. They dont make any mods to the clock, power supply or other circuitry.
These are the same AD/DA chips (AK) used by Apogee and Digi among others.
Though I had a couple hiccups in the upgrade process I would totally reccomend it for your Digi. Otherwise you will be going thru a lot of trouble and cost to avoid its AD/DA. which renders it just a large, heat generating software dongle.
I like my BLA-ed 828 so much I am looking at getting a 2nd one to get
modded.
My other plan is to get another external converter. Are the Lucids any good?
They come up used for a good price quite often.

[losthighway]

I've noticed all of these come as two separate units. The 'converter' and the sound card. Excuse my ignorance, but I've only used cheap Delta stuff and each A/D box comes with its own soundcard. Do people mix and match these things? Which is more important? Could I have a Lynx A/D hooked up to my Delta card? Would I even want to?