Converter confusion....

[UXB]

I have recently been using a variety of convertors (Benchmark, Metric Halo, Valley Ind., and now Apogee), and I resonate with what Joel had written about Apogee. I don't consider them the "only" convertors on the planet, but I simply like the way they sound for many reasons. I work faster on them, and the results from the speakers better matche what I hear in my "mind's ear".

Another point I didn't see covered was integration. Speaking only for myself, if I'm using my studio in "creative mode", I can't have any technical distractions, or my creative juice evaporates. This had happened in many situations when things weren't clocking correctly (sometimes hard to tell), and I had to open various control panels and check all the sync, reset, etc... by the time I addressed the issue (which took only about 5-20 seconds) I would find my mind wandering, needing to check everything again and my creative moment would be gone. I am a bit obsessive, so this might not bother someone else. I use Logic, and the Apogee Ensemble is working great so far for me.

To address some points others have made:
Everyone is different, so I don't want to make blanket statements, but to hear it implied "If you can't tell the difference, then don't spend the money" seems a bit of a rigid statement. I tend to grow into gear, and the better the gear, the longer it takes me to really know it and its subtleties. To use another sensual analogy, tasting great food and wine can hone your senses and actually train your palate over time, whereas, if you are stuck eating (insert mediocre corporate strip mall food here), you may have trouble tasting sublime flavors worth savoring. This is not to say you should put $2000 wheels on a $100 car, as there are other fish you need to fry first.

Re. chipsets-
It is a great oversimplification to reduce a convertor to it AD/DA chipset. period. Not trying to piss on anyone's campfire, but to liken convertors based on that one part is a bit of a red herring, and a greater understanding of hardware and pc board layout may be warranted.

At the end of the day, if you are happy and productive, it's awesome. We all make missteps, and hopefully they don't cost too much and our ears improve in the process. The good news is there are a bevy of great products today to choose from. Perhaps finding a dealer which will allow you a reasonable return policy to help you find the "right stuff" for you and your studio would be the best thing in the long run.

Best,
H

[Alex Netick]

If your funds are limited like mine, I'd much rather have some better mics, pres, or just another audio interface with perfectly good converters (not that I think it will make much of a difference). Most of the interfaces that have come out in the last couple of years sound decent enough, and once your music goes on an mp3 or a 16 bit mastered c.d., there isn't going to be much difference, if any. Chances are you're probably like me and you don't have a space or monitors or ears that are even good enough to hear the difference.

[calaverasgrandes]

for me having better converters (higher bitrate, deeper bitdepth too) isnt about getting all that info to tape. I dont think that the end listener is gonna hear the paint peeling on the walls behind the guitar amp. sometimes I use dynamics or EQ ITB. In those cases I find it makes a bit of difference to have a good clean solid source before I smoosh the hell out of it or chop all its balls off.
For certain things (like cymbals) I go way out of my way to preserve the "edge" of them. Shitty converters make cymbals sound like tin cans. Good converters (with a good mic and pre of course) give you back...cymbal.

[UXB]

for me having better converters (higher bitrate, deeper bitdepth too) isnt about getting all that info to tape. I dont think that the end listener is gonna hear the paint peeling on the walls behind the guitar amp. sometimes I use dynamics or EQ ITB. In those cases I find it makes a bit of difference to have a good clean solid source before I smoosh the hell out of it or chop all its balls off.
For certain things (like cymbals) I go way out of my way to preserve the "edge" of them. Shitty converters make cymbals sound like tin cans. Good converters (with a good mic and pre of course) give you back...cymbal.

To underscore this point, certain effects (compression) and eq ranges (generally hf) can reveal blemishes in the sound as well, be that from inadequate convertors or even hashy distortion of certain LDC mics. Just echoing Calaveras' sentiment.

[Alex Netick]

Not that I want to be argumentative (ha ha), but could you give me an example of a "bad" converter? Besides maybe the 8 bit converter on my 20 year old Ensoniq Mirage? Most interfaces made in the last few years use pretty much the same converters -- akm model whatever-the-fuck or some other japanese name I can't remember. As far as I know, even relatively inexpensive interfaces like the Emu are using the exact same converters as high-end boutique interfaces. As far as the "clock" debate, I could see how it might mean something to a studio syncing different pieces of gear for whatever reason. I can just say from experience that I bought an outboard converter (an apogee rosetta) a few years ago, and wish in retrospect that I had bought something else like a microphone or better monitors. Now there are 500 dollar interfaces that sound better, which you can expect from the evolution of digtal stuff.

for me having better converters (higher bitrate, deeper bitdepth too) isnt about getting all that info to tape. I dont think that the end listener is gonna hear the paint peeling on the walls behind the guitar amp. sometimes I use dynamics or EQ ITB. In those cases I find it makes a bit of difference to have a good clean solid source before I smoosh the hell out of it or chop all its balls off.
For certain things (like cymbals) I go way out of my way to preserve the "edge" of them. Shitty converters make cymbals sound like tin cans. Good converters (with a good mic and pre of course) give you back...cymbal.

To underscore this point, certain effects (compression) and eq ranges (generally hf) can reveal blemishes in the sound as well, be that from inadequate convertors or even hashy distortion of certain LDC mics. Just echoing Calaveras' sentiment.

[@?,*???&?]

Not that I want to be argumentative (ha ha), but could you give me an example of a "bad" converter?

Uh, yeah. Nearly anything that relies on a laser to take information off an audio disc...

[Alex Netick]

My advice is try before you buy. Get one from a place like musicians friend or guitar center, and if it doesn't make a difference, return it. I'd be looking at a new interface before an outboard converter, myself, and I think the case for outboard converters is asn't as compelling today as it was 6 or 7 years ago, with so many excellent sounding interfaces out there. It all depends on your needs, though. Good luck.

[calaverasgrandes]

Not that I want to be argumentative (ha ha), but could you give me an example of a "bad" converter?

Behringer ADA8000. Stock Motu 828MKII. Most of the platinum Focusrite I have heard. (bought a twintrack at a fleamarket for $150, sold it a month later for $200 on CL. It SUCKED!) .
I think for the most part the converters are all roughly equivalent. the chips themselves that is. Its the clocking and audio amps which make them sound bad. My crappy little NI Kontrol 1 USB box actually sounds pretty decent for its price. I have gotten some good warm sounding tracks out of it. But it has no snappiness to its audio. No attack. Which I am guessing is due to some "feature" of the audio preamps which prevents them from overloading or being shorted.
The Behringers I could never get to sound good. Everything that came throught them had this orange haze of puke on them. I tried clocking externally, different clock rates, tracking at -6, -10 and -18dbfs. Everything came out of the Behringer sounding like ass. My best mics all sounded like $30 CAD 22's. Guitars sounded fizzy and undefined. cymbals like marbles on a hot tin roof.

You dont have to go far to find a bad sounding converter. Its harder to find a good one.

[mattwhritenour]

(bought a twintrack at a fleamarket for $150, sold it a month later for $200 on CL. It SUCKED!) .

the twin track might of sucked but at least you got to make 50 bucks off of it, lol.

[Alex Netick]

Yeah, i guess. I still think you can do just fine today without expensive boutique converters and the whole clock thing as a determinant of sound is way overblown, but people are always figuring ways of getting money out of you. I'm beginning to like the Mackie interfaces, which sound pretty decent to me.

[Alex Netick]

At the time I bought the apogees, around 2002 or so, I bought some other expensive pres and stuff that I also regret buying, because it's way overkill for what I do. I guess it depends on what you do. I still think the need for outboard converters, assuming you bought a decent interface to begin with (like a mackie onyx, or an emu 1616m or whatever), isn't as compelling as it was 10 years ago, and I think you could do fine without them. Great albums were made on far worse.

Yeah, i guess. I still think you can do just fine today without expensive boutique converters and the whole clock thing as a determinant of sound is way overblown, but people are always figuring ways of getting money out of you. I'm beginning to like the Mackie interfaces, which sound pretty decent to me.[/quote

[chris harris]

Chances are you're probably like me and you don't have a space or monitors or ears that are even good enough to hear the difference.

Wow. That's a horrible assumption to make. And, it's also clear evidence that you've got no place making the kind of nonsense statements you've been making in this thread. You admit that you don't have the ears to hear the difference between high quality converters and the stock stuff in lower to mid range interfaces? Why are you commenting on this topic then?

Alex appears to have been doing this for at least 6 years. Yet, he still can't hear the difference between Apogee conversion and a Mackie interface's built-in conversion. If he can't hear that difference, even in a shitty room on shitty monitors, then he's got much bigger problems than the quality of his conversion.

I'd suggest that he's a pretty bad person to be taking advice from on this topic.

[Alex Netick]

What makes your advice so great? Not that it really makes much difference, anyway, you pinhead.

Chances are you're probably like me and you don't have a space or monitors or ears that are even good enough to hear the difference.

Wow. That's a horrible assumption to make. And, it's also clear evidence that you've got no place making the kind of nonsense statements you've been making in this thread. You admit that you don't have the ears to hear the difference between high quality converters and the stock stuff in lower to mid range interfaces? Why are you commenting on this topic then?

Alex appears to have been doing this for at least 6 years. Yet, he still can't hear the difference between Apogee conversion and a Mackie interface's built-in conversion. If he can't hear that difference, even in a shitty room on shitty monitors, then he's got much bigger problems than the quality of his conversion.

I'd suggest that he's a pretty bad person to be taking advice from on this topic.

[trodden]

(bought a twintrack at a fleamarket for $150, sold it a month later for $200 on CL. It SUCKED!) .

the twin track might of sucked but at least you got to make 50 bucks off of it, lol.

did you report that profit to the IRS?

[chris harris]

What makes your advice so great? Not that it really makes much difference, anyway, you pinhead.

The difference in sound between a converter like the Apogee Rosetta and the converters in the 002 or the latest Mackie interface are not subtle. It's not some creepy esoteric subtlety that can only be heard by mastering ninjas. It's a real, obvious difference. Not that the digi or Mackie converters are bad. I've used worse and still managed to get a result that I was pleased with. But, the difference between them and even the midrange stuff like Apogee, Lavry, and Lynx should be pretty obvious.

My advice to the original poster is to listen to some converters rather than a guy who admits to not even being able to hear the difference between converters that sound quite a bit different. I'm advising that listening to the gear would be more beneficial than listening to a guy who advises to the lowest common denominator with disclaimers like this:

Chances are you're probably like me and you don't have a space or monitors or ears that are even good enough to hear the difference.

I'm not going to make insulting assumptions about the poster's gear and experience and then tailor my advice to suit that.