Converter confusion....

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

Mane1234
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Houston

Converter confusion....

Post by Mane1234 » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:25 pm

I'm starting to think about the whole A/D converter situation and what I need to do to upgrade. After looking at the Apogee site I'm more than a little overwhelmed and I'm having a hard time determining what I'm going to need and what would just be overkill.

Currently I'm using a Digi 002 and I also have a Digimax FS to take advantage of using the extra 8 ADAT channels. I mix ITB and then take my stereo mix to an outboard compressor/limiter and then right to the CD recorder. I'm planning on getting a 24 channel analog board this year or early next year so I can get back to OTB mixing.

Do any of you Apogee users have any suggestions?

Thanks
Of course I've had it in the ear before.....

joel hamilton
zen recordist
Posts: 8876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 pm
Location: NYC/Brooklyn
Contact:

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:16 am

I am listed on the Apogee website as an "apogee user."
I really like Apogee stuff. I have liked it since the days when they were really the ONLY alternative to the 888/digi stuff. I still think they make converters with a great sound. There are about 7 million pages of debate on this very ubject, all over the interweb.

Keep in mind that I like the way Apogee converters sound, the same way that some people would choose an old MCI JH16 over a studer 827: because they like the way it sounds, rather than based on empirical data analysis. The 827 might be a little less distorted, or have a little more top end, but the MCI just sounds so great! Even if the transport is not as fast to reqind, or whatver: people love what they love, and this is all subjective, regardless.

Some people like the Lavry, maybe because they are influenced by statistics and/or the sound. Some like the Apogee, for the same reasons. Maybe you would like the Lynx stuff, the lucid stuff, or the DAD stuff.
I have heard a bunch of different converters, and I have heard a bunch of different tape machines. The variation between any of these units is comparable. Comparable in the sense that I can see why one person woul like the Otari, and another would like the Studer, and another would like the Stephens.

Apogee is a good company, and makes good converters. IMO, they are a good choice of converter. I use the AD16/DA16's and also a rosetta 200. I like all of them.
I mix on a console, so i need a bunch of out's.
Hope this helps. I recommend Apogee, do some more research though. It is just my opinion. Hopefully someone will chime in with another option for you.

chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:21 am

if you're wanting to mix 24+ outputs from the computer, on your analog mixer, you're gonna have to abandon the 002 in favor of PTHD or another DAW. When you do that, I'd suggest looking into the SSL Alphalink converters. 24 channels of really great AD and DA for an insanely low price.

locosoundman
pushin' record
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:44 pm
Location: in my own little world

Post by locosoundman » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:27 am

It also depends on what type of music you are doing to some extent.

I also have an Apogee AD16, but I use Mytek converters for more "critical" work (i.e. classical 2-track stuff). To me the Apogee's are a little more aggressive sounding and not quite as "clear."

The converters that most blew me away (I don't own them unfortunately) were the Genex A/D's. I think the company was/is experiencing difficulties so I am not sure if they still exist.

Since I do mostly live recording, I have found the built-in limiters on the AD16 to be a life saver. Overall it is a very good unit, and for the money it is a very good deal, but I would also recommend looking into others like Mytek, Prism, and Lavry before you spend your cash.
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
- Pogo Possum

Mane1234
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Houston

Post by Mane1234 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:13 am

Thanks guys....Pretty fair and balanced info thus far so by all means keep it comin. I'm thinking that after I have a 24ch board then I'll go looking for a 24 track recorder and then just use PTLE for editing and so on. I miss having my little fingers on faders and knobs and stuff. So that's the plan. If ya have any more info about your A/D...D/A schemata come forth ye and post it up.

Thanks again all
Of course I've had it in the ear before.....

joel hamilton
zen recordist
Posts: 8876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 pm
Location: NYC/Brooklyn
Contact:

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:07 am

Mane1234 wrote:Thanks guys....Pretty fair and balanced info thus far so by all means keep it comin. I'm thinking that after I have a 24ch board then I'll go looking for a 24 track recorder and then just use PTLE for editing and so on. I miss having my little fingers on faders and knobs and stuff. So that's the plan. If ya have any more info about your A/D...D/A schemata come forth ye and post it up.

Thanks again all
okay,
If you are going to get a 24track machine, you will probably want a 32 channel console, so you have somewhere to return those aux sends, and verbs, and tape echo's and stereo parallel drum bus returns... etc..etc..... not just tape returns. a 24 channel console with 16 I/O makes more sense to me as a bare minimum setup with what you have right now. you can always get all 18 outputs rolling if need be, and still have 6 return channels.
Any of the converters mentioned would work for you just fine. the more time you spend actually mixing, the better your records will sound. Spending a ton of time dwelling on the last .0002 db @ 1k or .000002 THD at 40hz will steal valuable time away from actually making things sound good. That sort of information makes a hell of a lot more sense (like jitter issues and other hard to qualify arguments on the interweb) once you actually hear/feel/experience some of these "issues" for yourself. Like when i got a new, fancy clock for the protools rig. All of a sudden, it was like the top end of my console got a whole lot better! Especially the EQ up at 8k and up... that really started to sound GREAT to me! so I could open up the top end of my mixes a bit more. I am very happy with the converters I use, with he clock i use, and with my gear, and you will be eventually as well. I am sure of it, and most of the happiness will come from your own skills making your "job" a lot easier, rather than from spending a ton of money on gear (ONLY). of course the good tools cost money, but that is only like 23% of the equation.
Get something good, and get to work! :)

GooberNumber9
tinnitus
Posts: 1094
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:52 am
Location: Washington, DC

Post by GooberNumber9 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:27 am

Mane1234 wrote:Thanks guys....Pretty fair and balanced info thus far so by all means keep it comin. I'm thinking that after I have a 24ch board then I'll go looking for a 24 track recorder and then just use PTLE for editing and so on. I miss having my little fingers on faders and knobs and stuff. So that's the plan. If ya have any more info about your A/D...D/A schemata come forth ye and post it up.
You could avoid the whole decision about converters like this:
Get an Alesis HD24XR - optionally have Jim Williams mod/upgrade it. It has 24 channels of built-in A/D and D/A. They might not be as good as Apogee, but many people like them, some compare them to Radar units.

Anyway, then you can record into the HD24XR, use a Fireport to put the tracks into PTLE for overdubs, edits, funky processing you can't do analog (reverses, whatever), and then use the Fireport to dumb it BACK to the HD24XR for mixdown.

That gives you the best of both worlds for not a huge amount of money. You can also use the HD24XR converters with the 002 for overdubs if you want.

joel hamilton
zen recordist
Posts: 8876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 pm
Location: NYC/Brooklyn
Contact:

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:47 am

GooberNumber9 wrote: Anyway, then you can record into the HD24XR, use a Fireport to put the tracks into PTLE for overdubs, edits, funky processing you can't do analog (reverses, whatever), and then use the Fireport to dumb it BACK to the HD24XR for mixdown.
.
Interesting that you chouse one of the simplest things to do in the analog domain as an example of "what you cant do analog." Reverse is one key press away on a studer A827, and one flip of the reel or edit mode away on almost any professional tape machine ever made. :) :o :roll: :oops: :shock: :D :) :twisted: :shake: :rofl: :rofl: :zzz: :skeptic:

kayagum
ghost haunting audio students
Posts: 3490
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Saint Paul, MN

Post by kayagum » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:16 am

Joel- point made, but you can probably do without the obnoxious emoticons....

The standalone hard disk recorder is not a bad option. I'm personally very happy with my HD24 (and it's not even the XR version), and a lot of people are ecstatic about the RADAR.

Maybe get some premium converters in the same way you would have premium preamps (i.e. fewer but better) for the money tracks.

Al_Huero
suffering 'studio suck'
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:58 am
Location: Vista
Contact:

Post by Al_Huero » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:56 pm

I'm in the market for a 2-ch DA converter with S/PDIF to get those last two channels out of the Digi 002. Right now I'm using the 002 DA along with a Frontier Audio Tango 24; so something in that range. I have an Apogee Mini-Me for the AD, but the mini-DAC at $850 or so seems a bit much. Anyone aware of other interfaces a bit more down market? I found one by Radio Design Labs but curious if there are others.

joel hamilton
zen recordist
Posts: 8876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 pm
Location: NYC/Brooklyn
Contact:

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:08 pm

kayagum wrote:Joel- point made, but you can probably do without the obnoxious emoticons....
I totally agree about the emoticons. they are obnoxious, which was the point. Sorry. I thought it was obvious because the ones I chose didnt even make any sense for the sentiment.. like the "asleep" one or whatever. I even hate the word "emoticon."

kayagum
ghost haunting audio students
Posts: 3490
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Saint Paul, MN

Post by kayagum » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:04 pm

I just don't want to get it into hieroglyphic territory, if you know what I mean.

rwc
resurrected
Posts: 2333
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: Bed Stuy, Brooklyn

Post by rwc » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:23 pm

lolz @ apogee website.
We mixed John Mayer's "Continuum" at Larrabee Studios on the SSL 9K using my Apogee AD/DA-16X's, which helped us get a lot of depth to the already great sounding tracks. Johns music has a lot of depth, both musically and sonically, so it helped that the sessions were set at 96k. But to achieve those smooth and silky highs and deep and warm lows, the 16X's helped us get there."
so corny and cheesy.

I agree with subatomic.

OTB on the digi 002 sucks for three reasons

a) the format game.

two channels of spdif, 8 channels of adat, so many channels of 1/4" line out, rca out.. some line inputs have gain control, some do not... WTF? this is what I hate most about prosumer gear. scrounging for outputs and inputs in the most ghetto manner possible.

b) Lack of enough outputs and inputs to be productive compared to a 24 channel unit, or two 16s..

c) One of the worst converters ever made.

For these reasons I suggest pro tools HD, or another DAW, if you are looking to go OTB.
Real friends stab you in the front.

Oscar Wilde

Failed audio engineer & pro studio tech turned Component level motherboard repair store in New York

Alex Netick
takin' a dinner break
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:03 am

Post by Alex Netick » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:51 pm

I bought some 2 channel apogee rosetta's, and I don't think I'd ever buy any again. They broke after a week, and I got a huge headache getting them fixed, and when I got them back, they didn't sound the same. When they worked, they did sound pretty decent.

Alex Netick
takin' a dinner break
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:03 am

Re: Converter confusion....

Post by Alex Netick » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:19 am

Personally, I'd probably just get a new interface. I don't use digi, but I think the 003 uses the same converters as the apogees.
Mane1234 wrote:I'm starting to think about the whole A/D converter situation and what I need to do to upgrade. After looking at the Apogee site I'm more than a little overwhelmed and I'm having a hard time determining what I'm going to need and what would just be overkill.

Currently I'm using a Digi 002 and I also have a Digimax FS to take advantage of using the extra 8 ADAT channels. I mix ITB and then take my stereo mix to an outboard compressor/limiter and then right to the CD recorder. I'm planning on getting a 24 channel analog board this year or early next year so I can get back to OTB mixing.

Do any of you Apogee users have any suggestions?

Thanks

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 78 guests