Steve Albini Recorded All Wave Movement

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Post by Patrick McAnulty » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:07 am

johnnydove wrote:
P Mackey wrote:
johnnydove wrote:
RefD wrote:
johnnydove wrote:
RefD wrote:
Tatertot wrote:If donny is donny in the TOMB version of Lebowski then ampguy is the neighbor/landlord who "got the venue" he wanted (for his performance art to Mussorgsky music). I get to be the insufferable guy who hangs out at the Julianne Moore character's place and talks on the phone in some foreign language, the one who says he does "nothing much" when asked what he does for a living!
Hi, i'm Jackie Treehorn.
i dig the way you do business jackie
*takes call, hastily scribbles something on notepad, then tears off page and hurries out of room*

Image
You sir, win. Image
your post>mine
8)
surprisingly, that picture was harder to find than one might think. i almost busted out the dvd for the screenshot. but it definitely followed up your post quite nicely :^:
I'm sure it was hard to find. I assumed it would be damn near impossible to fine pictures that would match with the quotes we are all saying without doing a screen shot. lol One thing we can all be sure of though is that The Big Lebowski is an amazing movie.

That and all Dude wanted was his rug back.
?_?

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Post by cgarges » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:10 am

dwlb wrote: didn't know that. What do you suppose that's due to?
I really don't know. It's surprising to me, but that's the case. You know most of that stuff is just general hand-held recording done under less than ideal circumstances. Lower noise floor, maybe? In any case, it's a pretty clear indication of digital recording stuff that we can't hear at the time it happens. If that's not recording some type of energy, I don't know what it.

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Post by donny » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:48 am

i was referring to a physical transfer
http://www.trounrecords.com

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Post by T-rex » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:14 am

Wow, the Toy Tiger - That's a blast from the past. Tell me you wore leather pants when you played there!

And Judas, I totally feel you on the self imposed limitations. I think I said earlier, I totally respect trying to get a more honest representation of music. But from the interview it sounds like she is taking a stance against calculators at least, and they are digital so I may be stretching. . .

Anyway, my point is I am all for everyone doing what they want. As long as no compressors get hurt, I don't care how anyone approaches their art. All I really care about is the finished product On the other hand, because I feel that way, it's kind of a bummer when other people say, "Doing it your way, with calculators, is not a TRUE representation of the music." Maybe it's reactionary.

The funny thing is, in that Pixies book apparently her and her sister have been home recording ever since they were teenagers. I would have thought she would be very eloquent on the subject having had the background in it.
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Post by Judas Jetski » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:08 pm

T-rex wrote:Wow, the Toy Tiger - That's a blast from the past. Tell me you wore leather pants when you played there!

And Judas, I totally feel you on the self imposed limitations. I think I said earlier, I totally respect trying to get a more honest representation of music. But from the interview it sounds like she is taking a stance against calculators at least, and they are digital so I may be stretching. . .

Anyway, my point is I am all for everyone doing what they want. As long as no compressors get hurt, I don't care how anyone approaches their art. All I really care about is the finished product On the other hand, because I feel that way, it's kind of a bummer when other people say, "Doing it your way, with calculators, is not a TRUE representation of the music." Maybe it's reactionary.

The funny thing is, in that Pixies book apparently her and her sister have been home recording ever since they were teenagers. I would have thought she would be very eloquent on the subject having had the background in it.
You'd think that I'd be eloquent with a Masters degree (an MDiv no less!) but no, I still sound a complete idiot unless I have 45 minutes and a pen and paper to compose myself. It's like there are too many things floating around in my head for me to figure out which one is the most important... and when I find the thing that's most important it usually doesn't fit the conversation unless I can explain myself for five minutes first. Which is why I try to avoid being interviewed.

One thing I ran into at seminary and keep coming back to is the role of imagination in human thought processes. People tend to think of imagination as the stuff of fairy tales, but really it's the source of abstract thought, which is where things like recording (or any other process not directly tangible) comes from. For some people, the editing flexibility of digital enhances the creative process. For others it kills it. There does seem to be something more visceral about recording to tape, although once you get right down to it there's very little difference between high resolution digital and tape recording, other than which device you use to "read" the stored data. For someone who is very intuitive, little details like this can make all the difference.

Being able to go back and fix your mistakes can sometimes be worse for the creative process than leaving them and working around them until they aren't mistakes any more. That's definitely how I work (with my hum and hiss-filled, weird-@ss analog gear). I used to try to make the noises go away. Now I just let them fill sonic space and work through the noise rather than trying to avoid it. In fact, sometimes not having the noise there screws me up. (Bearing in mind that I record my own music, not other people's, so the choice is mine to make.) For me, it's not just a procedural difference. It's a whole different mentality. Like in martial arts--Wado Ryu is all about speed and agility, whereas longfist or Kung Fu might be more about strength and flexibility. The end goal is more or less the same thing, but the frame of reference is completely different.

I also tend to get uncomfortable when people say things like "there's only one way to do it right," although obviously there are plenty of times when there is only one way to do something right. In this particular case, rock 'n' roll developed in part because of audio tape, and audio tape became what it was because of rock 'n' roll. So there's something of a symbiosis there. If it's possible to call a Strat a "pure rock 'n' roll machine," then the same thing could be said of tape. That doesn't make analog recording more "honest." It just makes it more true to form when you're recording rock 'n' roll, sometimes.

I can see how if someone was too close to the rock 'n' roll end of things to see the big picture, they might miss important things like that there's more music than just rock 'n' roll, and there's more to rock 'n' roll than Strats and history. I can also see how that kind of thinking isn't going to play well on the TOMB, where there are a lot of people who have an ethical responsibility to ensure that they are capturing artists performances in the most efficient and usable way possible. Worse still, there are probably a bunch of people out there milking bands of their hard-won cash using all sorts of analog hokum when they could be getting similar results twice as fast using digital media. So it's easy to see why this whole thing would be a hot button.

Ah, so Kim shot her mouth off, disparaging calculators and Xerox machines (both of which I love dearly) in the same breath. I mean, it's never nice to be mean to people just because they're doing things differently than you are, but really, what's the big deal? It's not like digital recording technology is going to go away any time soon (although analog just might). If these guys have the star power and the chops to pull it off, I say more power to them. If that helps to bring popular music back from the edge of soul-killing perfectionism, all the better.

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Post by RodC » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:53 pm

Tatertot wrote:If donny is donny in the TOMB version of Lebowski then ampguy is the neighbor/landlord who "got the venue" he wanted (for his performance art to Mussorgsky music). I get to be the insufferable guy who hangs out at the Julianne Moore character's place and talks on the phone in some foreign language, the one who says he does "nothing much" when asked what he does for a living!
So who is Jesus Quintana??

Mark it 8, Dude



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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:27 pm

I think Ms. Deal expresses herself very well through the bass and her singing/songwriting, but not so well in random radio station interviews with hyperactive Australian dj's barraging her with glib questions.

Who gets to be the philip seymour hoffman character? There is also an opening for the jimmie dale gilmore cameo role.

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Post by RodC » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:40 pm

Im sure ubertar was much like Little Larry Sellers when he was a kid.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'

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Post by evangelista » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:28 pm

haha

they make such shitty records anyway

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Post by Patrick McAnulty » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:23 pm

RodC wrote:Im sure ubertar was much like Little Larry Sellers when he was a kid.
And a good day to you, sir!


I really need to leave this thread and go watch The Big Lebowski. There should be a Chicago Lebowski Party. Anyone down for that?
?_?

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Post by johnnydove » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:54 pm

P Mackey wrote:
RodC wrote:Im sure ubertar was much like Little Larry Sellers when he was a kid.
And a good day to you, sir!


I really need to leave this thread and go watch The Big Lebowski. There should be a Chicago Lebowski Party. Anyone down for that?
i am SO down!
-johnny

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Post by johnnydove » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:14 pm

maybe the all wave movement needs to take a cue from dethklok and record onto the purest format available, water. i mean, it sounds better than when it actually happened...
-johnny

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Post by wedge » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:27 pm

Judas Jetski wrote:You'd think that I'd be eloquent with a Masters degree (an MDiv no less!) but no, I still sound a complete idiot unless I have 45 minutes and a pen and paper to compose myself. It's like there are too many things floating around in my head for me to figure out which one is the most important... and when I find the thing that's most important it usually doesn't fit the conversation unless I can explain myself for five minutes first. Which is why I try to avoid being interviewed.

One thing I ran into at seminary and keep coming back to is the role of imagination in human thought processes. People tend to think of imagination as the stuff of fairy tales, but really it's the source of abstract thought, which is where things like recording (or any other process not directly tangible) comes from. For some people, the editing flexibility of digital enhances the creative process. For others it kills it. There does seem to be something more visceral about recording to tape, although once you get right down to it there's very little difference between high resolution digital and tape recording, other than which device you use to "read" the stored data. For someone who is very intuitive, little details like this can make all the difference.

Being able to go back and fix your mistakes can sometimes be worse for the creative process than leaving them and working around them until they aren't mistakes any more. That's definitely how I work (with my hum and hiss-filled, weird-@ss analog gear). I used to try to make the noises go away. Now I just let them fill sonic space and work through the noise rather than trying to avoid it. In fact, sometimes not having the noise there screws me up. (Bearing in mind that I record my own music, not other people's, so the choice is mine to make.) For me, it's not just a procedural difference. It's a whole different mentality. Like in martial arts--Wado Ryu is all about speed and agility, whereas longfist or Kung Fu might be more about strength and flexibility. The end goal is more or less the same thing, but the frame of reference is completely different.

I also tend to get uncomfortable when people say things like "there's only one way to do it right," although obviously there are plenty of times when there is only one way to do something right. In this particular case, rock 'n' roll developed in part because of audio tape, and audio tape became what it was because of rock 'n' roll. So there's something of a symbiosis there. If it's possible to call a Strat a "pure rock 'n' roll machine," then the same thing could be said of tape. That doesn't make analog recording more "honest." It just makes it more true to form when you're recording rock 'n' roll, sometimes.

I can see how if someone was too close to the rock 'n' roll end of things to see the big picture, they might miss important things like that there's more music than just rock 'n' roll, and there's more to rock 'n' roll than Strats and history. I can also see how that kind of thinking isn't going to play well on the TOMB, where there are a lot of people who have an ethical responsibility to ensure that they are capturing artists performances in the most efficient and usable way possible. Worse still, there are probably a bunch of people out there milking bands of their hard-won cash using all sorts of analog hokum when they could be getting similar results twice as fast using digital media. So it's easy to see why this whole thing would be a hot button.

Ah, so Kim shot her mouth off, disparaging calculators and Xerox machines (both of which I love dearly) in the same breath. I mean, it's never nice to be mean to people just because they're doing things differently than you are, but really, what's the big deal? It's not like digital recording technology is going to go away any time soon (although analog just might). If these guys have the star power and the chops to pull it off, I say more power to them. If that helps to bring popular music back from the edge of soul-killing perfectionism, all the better.

Now you know what I could go for right now? A white russian.
WORD!

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Post by jc_terrones » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:10 am

Judas Jetski wrote:
T-rex wrote:I'll take two Big Lebowski's and I can pay!

If anyone wants to come down to Louisville for one of the Lebowski fests let me know. . .

I don't think anyone is busting on the method of recording; I think the two main things everyone is talking about is:
1) Kim (whom I dig) sounds like a complete idiot when trying to explain the All Wave Movement. It's as if she has no idea what she is rebelling against. It doesn't mean that she doesn't, it's just that she sounds like that in that interview. It's god awful.
2.) It sounds a bit dogmatic. Most folks round these parts (at least myself, maybe I can't speak for everyone) follow the whatever works mentality. To completely dis a method of recording (digital) seems a little heavy handed given the times we are currently living in. It's not that anything is wrong with tape, it's awesome. But so is digital. Their just different, it doesn't have to be an either or thing.
Fair enough... Kim does sound like a complete idiot in the interview, I'll give you that. But I totally didn't pick up any serious "dis" of digital media. Well, except where Kim was shooting her mouth off in the interview... but even there, the Pixies "Trompe le Monde" was recorded digitally (far as I know), and she hasn't publicly reviled that recording. She's just Kim Deal shooting her mouth off in a very obvious fashion.

I think the thing which concerns me about the whole thing is the TOMB response to these self-imposed limitations. It seems like everyone's ready to pillory these guys if they can't justify their artistic choices objectively. Like it's somehow better for Albini to rely on legacy equipment than it is for him to use the stuff because he likes it better.

I think part of the conflict here is between engineer and artist. These "All Wave" people are ultimately thinking artistically (in a very technical fashion, despite how Kim came off), rather than thinking about the most efficient way to reach their goals. This "movement" seems like more of a craftsman's approach, like the arts & crafts movement of the early 20th century (which specifically avoided mechanization to focus on artisanship).

If these folks see digital technology as handicapping their ability to produce works of music with integrity, and therefore choose to avoid the stuff, who is any of us to criticize them? It's certainly not very open-minded or even fair to say "digital technology is just as good as analog, so you as an artist are not allowed to decide not to use it." But this thread started to seem like a witch hunt at about page three. It's as though none of us had the authority to stop them, so we mocked them instead (for their lack of conformity to our standards). It's creepy.

I personally think this kind of thinking may well be the antidote to the kind of bland, corporate music everyone seems to complain about. Not digital vs. analog, please. But rather individual artists and artistically minded people rooting out the things which restrict them artistically and intellectually and choosing to avoid those things. Like this thread:

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=56730

I have to say, it's kind of creepy the way we all react when people say things we don't agree with. Other regular posters have used the term "groupthink" and I kind of don't think that's very far off the mark. It seems like setting one's own rules and limitations rather than submitting to community standards is a huge violation of Tape Op dogma. That's creepy.
Well said. I tried to convey the same thing with my high school comment, yet way less eloquently. It's pretty sad when you see some of the better known and usually well respected engineers on this board participate as well.

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Post by T-rex » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:49 am

Not to keep dragging this on, but:

If you are going to start a "movement" then you should be able to justify why people should care about it. If you are just going to do what you do for art's sake, then why do you need to make a publicity statement out of it? Just do it. Artists pursue their art and it becomes a force in and of itself. Steve has been recording like this since he started just as a matter of fact. To me at least, it seems like it's just the way of recording that he enjoys. If all wave is so revolutionary, people will hear the album, be blown away by it and the recording and they will seek out how it was made to try to emulate it.

Let me say again, I totally respect what Steve A. does and I also appreciate what Kim is trying to do with her music. I am totally cool with that. I just think it's really funny that there are a thousand bands that have been doing this all along and no one commissioned a computer generated logo to tout their non-reliance on computers or to be prominently displayed on the back of their digital compact disc. The Dogme thing was a completely new way of filming being introduced to the world. All Wave is what pretty much 95% of people who record at Electrical do by default.

And the reference to the Dogme 95 thing is kind of funny (to me at least) because at least two of the four architects of that movement confess to breaking a few of those rules on various films; although later followers of the movement take the rules as absolute gospel. :D
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