a recipe for a full electric guitar sound?

[Smitty]

having learned lots over the past year or so, i am ever increasingly pleased with the quality of my recordings, with one major exception... electric guitar.

we've tried different amps, guitars, cabs, mics, placements, amp volumes, whatever we can think of... and sometimes the sound we get just ends up sounding boxy/tinny/small no matter what we do. sounds great in the room, we're running through great preamps and good converters, and using proper gain staging.

i don't understand why a LDC that picks up boomy bass on many sources (and is capable of reproducing 10hz) suddenly sounds like it's coming through a telephone in another room when i mic a guitar cab with it. i'm starting to wonder if it doesn't have more to do with my guitar/amp settings, as opposed to the post-amp chain. i like a lot of treble in my amps when i play them, but i think that might be screwing me over when i try to record them.

do you find that it's helpful/necessary to boost the bass/mids on the amp itself to keep a fuller sound?

any favorite recipes for getting a truly full-fidelity, big-as-life electric guitar sound?

i need a new approach or some wizened insight or something. i feel stuck.

[darjama]

i don't understand why a LDC that picks up boomy bass on many sources (and is capable of reproducing 10hz) suddenly sounds like it's coming through a telephone in another room when i mic a guitar cab with it. i'm starting to wonder if it doesn't have more to do with my guitar/amp settings, as opposed to the post-amp chain. i like a lot of treble in my amps when i play them, but i think that might be screwing me over when i try to record them.

Most modern LDCs have an "air boost" that is probably hyping the same frequencies that you are by playing with "a lot of treble." But I know you've tried other mics too. How are getting a lot of treble? Picking right at the bridge? Just using the bridge pickup on your guitars? Dialing back on bass and mid EQ knobs on your amp? This to me sounds like the culprit.

Personally, I'm usually trying to tame the low end out of my guitar tracks to make sure there's enough room for bass and kick.

edit: another possibility, standing waves, get your amps off the floor and see if that helps.

[Smitty]

the LDC in question is a CAD Equitek 350, which is a very natural, un-hyped mic with a pretty wide frequency response. i've used other condensers as well, but in many circumstances i much prefer the sound of a close-mic'd cab. every time i put a condenser a few feet back, it only makes the problem worse.

i'm usually playing a strat with various pickups engaged, and i'd say my treble knob is probably higher than the bass and mids. it's not extreme. what i'm hearing in the room is what i think of when i think of a 'good electric sound.'

Joel said something on here once about how it doesn't matter what you're hearing in the room because you're recording it with a mic and not your ears... and the trick is to tweak it until it sounds good in the mic and room be damned (paraphrasing here).

hence my questions... maybe what would sound especially bass and mid heavy in the room would actually sound correct through the mic?

[Smitty]

addendum: the main reason i'm asking is because when i'm checking out a microphone shootout of some kind, invariably i hear the result of a cab close-mic'd with a SM57 or a MD421, or an SM7, and it sounds great. and mine doesn't sound like that, and i'm wondering why.

we've gotten some great sounds in some tough situations as of late, and it's bugging me that this seemingly everyday task has me stumped.

[roscoenyc]

It is easier to take away bottom in a recorded electric guitar than to put it back in there. Without hearing your stuff I'd say to experiment w your amp settings. Add some bottom. To get some bottom out of your amp take the bottom off completely then dial it back in till you really hear it.

You might want to simplify too. If you are using more than one mic go back to one mic and move it around till you find a good spot.

Do you have real isolation between where your guitar amp is and your control room? Sometimes in less than isolated places you are hearing bottom through the wall when the player is playing so you end up w less bottom recorded. Record some and listen back. Keep messing with it till you get some beef on there.

[Smitty]

we're in a one-room setup, sorry. a control room... mmmmm. luxurious. one day.

if i understand the standing waves theory correctly, our amp could be in a location that effectively cancels out certain frequencies (i.e. bass) resulting in a bad recorded sound? can that happen even with a loud amp and a close cardioid mic?

[mjau]

can that happen even with a loud amp and a close cardioid mic?

It could. Moving an amp away from (or closer to) a wall usually has an audible impact on the low end.
I'm still not great with electric guitars, but one improvement I know I've made - and it took me forever to figure it out - is that the sound I'm hearing 6'4" off the ground (I'm 6'4") isn't even close to the sound the mic is hearing 4" away from the speaker cone. Getting down on the floor and messing with amp settings is a good step in the right direction.

And FWIW, the most natural reproduction on an amp I've ever recorded was with a ribbon - LDC's almost always give me more fizz than I want.

[DrummerMan]

I feel your pain Smitty!

I feel like the only time I get really great guitar sounds is completely by accident, and almost never by the standard prescribed practices.

My go to approach (which I learned from someone, I don't remember who, therefore it's somewhat standardly prescribed, I suppose) is to have a 414 about 9"-12" in front of the speaker, set to cardioid, facing sideways (so the speaker is facing the side of the mic element), usually toward a wall that's close by. Doesn't always work, but I've found it more consistent for me than the old 57-in-the-grill.

Or I split the signal to two amps and hard pan them.

[the finger genius]

I'm not familiar with the mic you're using, but if it doesn't have a pronounced proximity effect (I think some mics are specifically designed to avoid this) that could be why it doesn't sound like a close up 57 or 421, etc....

Proximity effect tends to be a big part of my electric guitar sound, especially when i'm going for something thick.

Have you played around with placing the mic at different angles to the cabinet?

In addition, quite often I'll end up trimming some top end off the guitar in the mix, which in effect brings the lows and mids more into the forefront.

[Smitty]

i've got a SM57 and a MD421 and an SM7, and i've tried all of them... my question isn't really mic-specific. i actually liked the MD421 the best, but the others don't sound 'right').

i don't think i even really like the SM57 at all, so that's not going to be my go-to no matter what. i finally understand what some people mean when they say it sounds 'grainy.'

[darjama]

It could be that the room is resonating with the amp and giving a bass boost, but the mics aren't picking this up. Try adding a 2nd mic in the back of the amp, lowpass it, and adjust phase as necessary. Use this to add back some low end.

[dsw]

Try a Ribbon mic and double track it.

[vvv]

dsw kinda beat me to it.

I am 100% in agreement that it's not the equipment, but the experience ears, talent, etc., of the recordist, blah-blah-blah.

That said, a cheap (dark) ribbon mic on a bright elec. guitar and amp combo mellows it nicely.

[drumsound]

i don't think i even really like the SM57 at all, so that's not going to be my go-to no matter what. i finally understand what some people mean when they say it sounds 'grainy.'

I'm so proud of you Smitty!

I almost always put a piece of carpet in front of the amp for the mic stand to go on. Those early reflections from the floor can be quite a bitch. Maybe move the mic out to the edge of the speaker, thats usually where the bottom is. And as you've kind of discovered, dynamic mics are your friends.

[armanbohn]

I feel your pain.

First off though ... What kind of guitar sound are you after? Clean ... mild overdrive ... crunch ....?

If it is problem with all of the above, you should really try and mix up your setup. You should be able to get ok sounds from the 'ol 57 in most situations. Not stellar ... but ok. Maybe your amp is the culprit?

What kind of amp? What kind of guitar? Are you doubling tracks?

I almost always double overdriven guitar tracks. The random patterns generated by clipping things really come out when they are placed into a stereo field.

Another thing to remember;

For distorted guitars, I always set my amp so that it sounds good on its own, and then turn DOWN the preamp gain a notch before tracking.