A cool way to integrate analog tape with your DAW

[greatmagnet]

As for monitoring goes, I am not using the DAW software to perform monitoring (which introduces latency). I am using the audio interface hardware (RME Fireface in my case) and its associated DSP-power zero-latency monitoring application (RME TotalMix) to handle all monitoring. I think monitoring through plugins messes with automatic delay compensations ability to keep everything in sync so it would not be recommended.

Brad

Yep, we are on the same page: your RME TotalMix is essentially the exact same creature as MOTU's CueMix application which allows you to monitor incoming audio direct from hardware (MOTU's PCI-424 card in my case) with zero latency, thus allowing Digital Peformer to focus it's processing power elsewhere.

I have put out the tentacles to the DP geniuses and will report back. There are a lot of things about DP that I absolutely adore..and once you get really good at a DAW it's hard to let go. But I have heard lots of truly great things about Cubase, so I tend to agree with you that it's time to look into having another weapon in the arsenal.

[newfuturevintage]

Nope. Because you are not using it on an insert. You are using it on an input channel. See the difference? The idea is to record the tape sound to the DAW and have it draw the waveform in the correct location in time.
Brad

It's a bummer that this isn't a standard feature of all DAWs. Sonar, for one, can't do this. brad, check yer mail.

[willowhaus]

Cool video!

One criticism, though: your audio levels are too low. I'm watching on a laptop, and I have it cranked 100% and still can't quite hear everything.

[greatmagnet]

I have confirmation now that DP definitely does not have any way to strap plugins across your input channels. Too bad.

[Brad McGowan]

Nope. Because you are not using it on an insert. You are using it on an input channel. See the difference? The idea is to record the tape sound to the DAW and have it draw the waveform in the correct location in time.
Brad

It's a bummer that this isn't a standard feature of all DAWs. Sonar, for one, can't do this. brad, check yer mail.

Sonar is usually ahead of the curve when it comes to cool features. That surprises me.

I'll check my mail! Thanks for the heads up.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Cool video!

One criticism, though: your audio levels are too low. I'm watching on a laptop, and I have it cranked 100% and still can't quite hear everything.

Yeah, I noticed the audio levels get a little low towards the end. I apologize for that. I'm a video-making newb and we were using a FlipVideo camera. If I make another video I'll be sure to fix the audio. Thanks for the feedback.

Brad

[Seamonster]

I have confirmation now that DP definitely does not have any way to strap plugins across your input channels. Too bad.

Caldo71, if I recall correctly (I'm not in the studio right now), DP has had, at least in the past, a recording delay compensation setting that works on all channels globally. I think it was originally meant to accommodate MIDI latency; I'm not even sure it's in recent versions of DP. I don't do a lot of MIDI so I never had to mess with it much, and since the advent of CueMix and direct monitoring it hasn't been an issue for me.

But if that functionality is still in DP, maybe it could be adjusted to account for the tape head-gap delay. Because that function in DP is global, your overdubs would have to be either all going through tape, or all not. You'd have one setting for when you're using tape and one setting for normal "undelayed" recording. Hypothetically, this would get you automatically-aligned waveforms.

I suppose it could also be that the function still exists in DP but might not have been designed with durations of tape-head latency in mind. I recall that part of adjusting it involved listening for when two hits were no longer flamming against each other -- matters of several milliseconds, but maybe not of longer durations(?).

Now I'm curious whether that DP function still exists. I'll be in the studio tomorrow; I'll try to remember to check it out.

Hoagie Hill

[Brad McGowan]

Yeah, most programs have that same kind of global feature. But like you said, that will only work if you have all of your tracks hitting tape. You'll also have to remember to set it back to zero whenever you want to go straight to digital. It will work though. I initially did just that with Cubase, but within 10 minutes I realized I needed to be able to control the latency on a channel by channel basis. Hence the plugin on the input channel idea.

How about Logic? Does that have input channels? Can anyone confirm Sonar for sure?

thanks,
Brad

[Lumin]

ok i just did this about 10 minutes ago in sonar.
applying the plug in to the channel effects bucket does not move the recorded waveform back the specified amount of samples during recording.
selecting the recorded material and applying the voxengo effect will move it though, but it causes you to process the entire selection instead of inserting the effect in the channel's effect bucket and having that do its thing during recording.

i have a couple thoughts though and unfortunately i just walked back to work and these things just occured to me, so i need to experiment with them.

instead of recording from 0:0:0 in sonar, i wonder if starting at measure 1 will allow the plugin to move the recorded waveform back however many samples it needs to go back. i have to try this. i know using sonar's built in offset settings, you are not able to move a recording back an amount if the recording starts at 0. you have to split the clip and then do the offset

i just forgot the second thing and ill edit this when i remember
edit*
like an idiot, i didnt check to see if applying the voxengo in the effects bucket caused the recorded sound to shift ala the alternative plugin mentioned earlier. i will also have to check this out when i get home in a bit.

[Lumin]

back home.
here is what i came up with.
in sonar it doesnt matter where you start recording, the plugin inserted will not affect what is being recorded until playback.
that said, the voxengo will work once in playback mode, it just does not visually nudge the track over however many samples you need it to.
you can bounce the track down and what was off can then be visually on, if you need it so.

hope this helps.

im needing to use this for a different method. i usually record 8 tracks at a time from my mpc 60 into my ramsa board. additionally i have a preamp patched into an insert on my aardvark q10 which causes a bit of a lag on whatever i am recording on that particular channel. until i can figure out how to assign my preamp to a group on my ramsa, this is how it has to be.
i appreciate you posting this thread because it helped me out with my problem even though i am not using a tape machine.

[Brad McGowan]

Cool! I'm glad you were able to solve an unrelated problem with this technique.

Too bad Sonar isn't upto par though...

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

It was cool meeting a few of you guys at the Roadshow in Sacramento this weekend. Hope to see you again at AES!

Brad

[newfuturevintage]

It was cool meeting a few of you guys at the Roadshow in Sacramento this weekend. Hope to see you again at AES!

Brad

Good meeting you too...

I can independently confirm Sonar can't apply a plugin destructively to a hardware input. I came across that when I was trying to get the Digital Musicians Link plugin happening. It is indeed a bummer.

I think the only way you could really get it to work in this scenario would be to put the latency compensation plug in the effects bucket, track, then freeze or bounce the track. Extra step, complete BS, but it'd work. I put in a feature request with Cakewalk around Sonar 5, but alas, still not there. You could attempt to do this with the global latency adjust, but you're right, gotta be doing all analog tracks in that instance.

[greatmagnet]

Hey folks,

Sorry for the prolonged absence from this thread: for some reason the notices were not coming to my emails and I had no idea there was still "activity" here!

Anyhow, I've been asking around the DP crowd with all this, and my bud Thaddeus Moore from Sprout City found a definitive solution to accomplishing Brad's method using Digital Performer or any other program that does not let you strap plugins to the incoming audio. I have tested this in a real session and it is fucking awesome.

it's a lot more work-around-ish than Brad's thing, but once you get a new file template going that you can always start from, it's no less easy to use. It's best described as a "flow chart" (I think) so here's a PDF of..."The McGowan Method"

Please note that I've done some really prolonged explanations of normaling and repro head delays in there which may be old hat for many, but I wanted this to be something that could also introduce those concepts to the newbie as well. And I'm super-open to critiques of this chart. If anyone thinks my language is at all off-base or unclear anywhere just speak up.