Dropping 10k on project studio...help

[theenvycorps]

My band is piecing together a project studio. I did quite a bit of work on our first demo back in '05 with a few odds and ends I borrowed. We recorded our album proper in '06, but I was more focused on writing/arranging than being behind the desk or worrying about gear. So I'm kind of out of the loop as what gear is getting love right now.

To save money we are going to hybridize our approach. Important things that require a nice room will be done at a proper studio. Drums, piano, etc. Overdubs will be mostly done at this place, and then back to the studio to mix.

The room's purpose is to: a) to record/arrange demos of new songs, and b) to serve as an overdub room for guitars/keys/vox/etc.

I have 10k to work with here. Main focuses will be the overdubs and vox, some drums and mixing will have to be done for demo purposes. The sound we go for is in the vain of the Flaming Lips, Wilco or Clinic...vintage vibe, color, not necessarily accurate sound, but musical and harmonically rich. We love Dave Fridmann and Jon Brion. Nigel Godrich is a hero. Mark Ronson to a degree.

Here is what we have at the moment:
Digi002
Q6600 3GB RAM with PT LE 7.4 on XP
Various boring plugins
Safe Sound P1
MXL V69me
SM7 (always beats out a U47 on my vox)
Tascam M320B (20 channel board from the 80's, got it for free the other day)

It seems the 500 series format has exploded lately, that might get us into a few different flavors of things for less dough. Seems like so many companies have thrown their hats into the ring it's impossible to know what to get. Oh, and I absolutely want an 1176 (or a purple, if they're decent). Maybe a nice ribbon...

Sorry for the long post, I appreciate your suggestions.

[RefD]

these are just the first thoughts/opinions to come to my mind based on your post:

if you go the 500-series route, i would get one or two 512C pres...and, since you name-checked Godrich, i would also look at the Standard Audio Level-Or for brutal compression and distortion.

there's some good EQs out there in 500-land, too.

i would also look at expanding the mic locker a bit.

Audix i5 is good if you want something that does the sm57 (snare, guitars, almost everything if need be) without being a 57 and maybe sounding better at the job.

there's other good stuff out there but i just had my face replaced with a sheet of mineral wool so i can't see too well.

perhaps more after i heal a bit?

[rwc]

I'd get some gefell FET mics, km84s, AEA remakes of RCA ribbons, a royer. The real classics.

I'd get a good DAC and good monitoring with some acoustic treatment so you know what you're doing. If you go the typical project studio setup of two tiny speakers up against a wall that causes weird resonances right next to a monitor that is 12" wide that you sit right in front of, you're losing out from the get go.

The cool part about that budget for an overdub studio is instead of shit quality in exchange for quantity, you can actually afford quality mics, good converters, good monitoring, room treatment, and cool preamps. get stuff that will hold its value for years to come.

[theenvycorps]

Definitely feeling you on the quality vs. quantity, what would you suggest for monitoring and DA? I want to stay in PT land for ease of transfer to the big studio. Apogee probably? I don't want to spend too much...dumping 2k on converters certainly isn't as fun as getting a shiny new mic or a vintage comp. For the keeper stuff I don't think we'd do more than 2 channels at a time. What's good and has SPDIF?

The monitors I use now are some worthless M Audio powered things...I will definitely upgrade.

[rwc]

I like to have two pairs.. one that tells me what I am really hearing, and another that purposely fucks stuff up so I know that what is supposed to get through is really getting through. The problem with awesome monitors is that you can hear so deep into a mix that improper balances aren't noticed sometimes.

If you have a television, you have the first part covered, as most have speakers. I don't get why people actually buy speakers to simulate shitty speakers when they are always around to be found. Between PC speakers, television, and boomboxes I have more "auratones" than I can count!

For monitors I recommend either these http://www.axiomaudio.com/m22.html or these used http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/225/

for A/D and D/A, I'd get something like this b-stock with an ADAT card.. you never know in the future when the extra 6 channels will come in handy. a 2 channel converter vs a b-stock 8 channel of good quality are really close in price. http://www.audiolines.com/Lynx-Aurora-8-p-19112.html

good converters, the axiom monitors, an 1176, a gefell mic, a royer, an old ribbon, and some room treatment still leaves money left over for interesting preamps.

[Artifex]

theenvycorps- Judging by the list of influence you sound like my kind of guys. Best of luck!

[llmonty]

Ha! I asked this question a few weeks ago, phrased the same way, except my budget was only $2500-3000. I guess it was less interesting! http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... =dragonfly

How about an API A2D? Would give you 2 great preamps and 2 great converters, since you said most keepers would only be 2 track any way. I haven't gotten one yet, since I have decent converters with RME, but it was on the list.

I would say that for overdubs you build a strong foundation of a great sound for each instrument, and then spend any leftover money on the fun stuff that helps create great arrangements and atmospheres, and is usually expensive in commercial studios simply because of the time required.

You didn't mention bass but, get a great Bass DI or multiple. I currently use a GT DITTO/BRICK that sounds fantastic and also a Sansamp. People like the U5. Or a pre that is also a great DI (I have a Hamptone JFET, AMPEX 601) for more bang for the buck.

For pres, I would say to get two fast channels (like the API or JFETs) and 1-2 slower channels (I use the Ampex for this, but there are a TON of other slower/color choices). Maybe something that is great on multiple things or has flexible sounds (Germanium, Pacifica, etc.). This will give lots of choices.

Yes on a good 1-4 channels of compression.

I am tracking these days with not much EQ hardware, other than some low cut.

Would agree with expanding your mic collection. A good set of SD condensers, a few more vocal choices. Maybe some odd ball new (BLUE) or vintage (LOMO) mics. I still love a 57 on guitar. I love a BLUE dragonfly, Alice mic, sometimes with a ribbon on acoustic.

Then it is about fun stuff and sounds, and to me, is way more important once you get the basics above (I mean a 500 series filled with awesome shit is so tempting for some reason -- i think it calls out to our baseball card and comic book childhoods -- COLLECT THEM ALL!). But it ain't cheap to fill a 6 or 10 space rack. And I know I might get killed here, but fun instruments will help your arrangements way more than a rack of pres/eqs/compressors (once you have a good starting point). Especially if you like Jon Brion (and the others you mentioned) - so I am talking about lots of instruments. Not sure what you have going on that way, but it is nice to experiment and get great arrangements when you have lots of instruments. Pianos and organs (wurly, rhodes, old yamahas, barroom uprights, farfisas, casios), stringed instruments (LOTS of guitars, upright, banjo), amps, pedals, ethnic and toy instruments, hubcaps, whatever.

Then you have a way to access these sounds easily. That could be where the cheaper A/D can go perhaps, just to have it set up for getting quick sounds, and then move to the better stuff once you have keeper ideas. Also, I use a TON the Little Labs PCP for for picking the right amps or sending signals to pedals. Also a great DI. Radial makes a sweet one as well.

I am in the same boat as you as we have been working on arrangements and pre-production for the past few months and are getting ready to bring it all to a studio for a week to track basics as quickly as possible, have good ideas on sounds etc and will get down as much as possible. then perhaps go to overdubs back at our place...fun times!

[theenvycorps]

Thanks for the long post, llmonty.

I am interested in getting some type of Ampex/Altec pre...you say you have the 601. How do you find it? And you're on the right track with the instruments. Our practice space is loaded to the gills with half-working stuff.

Any suggestions out there on compressors? Colored and grungy preferred.

[grockvt]

my best bang for buck purchases:

-blue baby bottle (high presence, crispy high output)
-fat head ribbon mics (the opposite of the blue)
-beyer M88 (an old one, sounds good on everything even piano)
-API A2D
-Central Station (much more useful than I imagined)
-JBL 4328s
-radial passive stereo direct box for keys (not even the jensen one)
-M-Audio Microtrack (to record master 2 track onto from the API spdif)

[llmonty]

I like the 601 very much. Works great on acoustic and bells. Some vocals, and aforementioned bass. This might sound stupid for I have had it for about 2 or 3 years and just had never gotten around to picking up an external phantom power box. So was just using with dynamics and ribbons. Finally picked one up, and been using with condensers and it is just wowzas. It is a nice complement to some crisper/highs type of mics -- like the dragonfly and the Alice. Really opened it up - and balanced some of the darker elements of the Ampex. Thing with these is how they were racked up when taken out of their reel to reel homes. Mine was luckily restored and recapped.

[Sean Sullivan]

10K...hmm

I would buy a 4 channels of preamp. I've been jonesing a Vintech 473, About $2400 with a power supply used.
Electro Voice RE20 is my favorite kick drum microphone at the moment. $250 used
Audio Technica AT4033 is super useful, great on bass cabinets. Under $200 used
Pair of Shure SM81 is a favorite of mine on acoustics and overheads. $400 used
If you don't want a SM57, check out the Beyer M201. Great on snare About $150 used.

Honestly, if you like the SM7B on your voice, that list will cover all your needs. If I was doing your style of music I would do minimal micing on drums, so no real need for tom microphones.

If you just want to spend money, grab a nice ribbon. Coles 4038 is a bad ass mono overhead and tons of other stuff.

[mjau]

Here I was thinking you had too much 10kHz in your project studio space.

[@?,*???&?]

I'm $40K in on gear and still don't seem have the right pieces at times.

I'm not sure you'll ever be happy. Stop buying anything, work at local studios that have the right gear.

You'll be so much happier you did.

Also, you'll find out how much more you need to know instead of wallowing in your safety zone.

[percussion boy]

You didn't mention bass but, get a great Bass DI or multiple. I currently use a GT DITTO/BRICK that sounds fantastic and also a Sansamp. People like the U5. Or a pre that is also a great DI (I have a Hamptone JFET, AMPEX 601) for more bang for the buck.

Shameless pimping: I'm unloading my u5 DI, at a, ah, very reasonable price.

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Re the actual topic:
To second what others have said, being able to hear what's been done (at home and at outside studios) is important. That suggests carving out a reasonable chunk of the $10k for monitors (and room treatment of the monitoring space), then getting 1-2 good channels of signal chain with the rest of your wad, if possible.

Hope this helps.

[rwc]

To second what others have said, being able to hear what's been done (at home and at outside studios) is important. That suggests carving out a reasonable chunk of the $10k for monitors (and room treatment of the monitoring space), then getting 1-2 good channels of signal chain with the rest of your wad, if possible.

Hope this helps.

I agree.

Granted it's not as "fun" as all the other toys but all the other toys are useless if you can't really hear what you're doing with them.