pitch correction on lap steel?

sad iron · Post by **sad iron** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:42 pm

God, I hate myself for the thought, but I have a track that's brilliantly played and a little pitchy on the whole. What steel part's not, I know, but a little dab of pitch correction seems to cure what ails it. Am I a heretic? Is this even done? I feel like I've just found this box, the name "Pandora" inscribed thereupon. What's a girl to do?

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:52 pm

sad iron wrote: What's a girl to do?

erase this thread and never, ever, tell anyone about this again...

Seriously, I'm sometimes embarrassed by some of the things I do make things work. There are fixes I've made that I keep to myself. If it works well, then everyone's happy, but if it doesn't, someone'll notice, even if they don't know what it is they're noticing, then that's a sign that I need to go back, undo it, and pretend like "Oh, there was a fucked up setting somewhere for some reason. Sorry 'bout that...".

sad iron · Post by **sad iron** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:00 pm

DrummerMan wrote:
sad iron wrote: What's a girl to do?
erase this thread and never, ever, tell anyone about this again...

Seriously, I'm sometimes embarrassed by some of the things I do make things work. There are fixes I've made that I keep to myself. If it works well, then everyone's happy, but if it doesn't, someone'll notice, even if they don't know what it is they're noticing, then that's a sign that I need to go back, undo it, and pretend like "Oh, there was a fucked up setting somewhere for some reason. Sorry 'bout that...".

Well, that's the thing: the part isn't in bad shape. I don't want to give that impression. just the pitch correction seems to take some of the edge off the pitchy parts and it sits better, at least to my ears tonight. This goes against everything I held dear at one point in my life, but now I wonder what's the greater good?

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:17 am

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, because I don't know the actual answer either. I know what the answer should be, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.
I'm just going to spit out some thoughts on the matter. They are not necessarily related to one another.

- It all depends on the piece of music.

- Maybe that "edge" that the autotune "fixes" is exactly what's cool about the part.

- Some people sing out of tune in a really endearing, nice kind of way. Others just sound bad. I often think about this in relation to whether or not to auto-tune.

- If it ain't broke, don't fix it... and "broke" doesn't mean "I bet I could make it better". It means not working.

- Is this your music or are you the engineer for someone else's stuff? This doesn't necessarily change the answer, but it might change how you approach deciding about it.

- Auto-tuning, over-editing, fixing-in-the-mix, etc. are a slippery slope. It's easy to get caught up in the power

.

- I, personally, try not to have philosophies about what things are ok to do or not. I live in the present and just try to do the best I can with what I have available, and that seems to help not feeling guilty about when I do actually use auto-tuning or other post-fixes. I've always taken the TapeOp philosophy of Creative Recording as "you can create recordings however you find works best for you, which might very well be different from what everybody else does". On the one hand, that can mean NOT using something that the mainstream uses. On the other hand, it can mean using it despite the fact that people who's music you respect are vehemently against it.

[tangent]
This reminds me of when I was primarily playing free-jazz, open improv type gigs. This was in the late 90's - early 2000's in New York, when this type of music was experiencing a decent sized revival. I was playing with alot of people, younger as well as some of the veteran folks from the scene. I started to get frustrated, though, because even though this music was supposed to be about freedom from restrictions, I would get shit or dirty looks for playing a groove, or something that sounded like a melody. It was amazing because, to some, "freedom" meant "you have to play OUT shit all the time, really fast and really loud" and you had to have something other than just your instrument. It had to have, like, some tube attached to it or something you could use a bow on or something. And on top of that, you had to yell and throw things and go into convulsions and shit. I kid you not, there were, and probably still are, people who consider "improvisation" to be doing this exact same shit EVERY SINGLE SHOW*. I consider improvisation and artistic freedom to mean that, if I think a groove or a beautiful melody will serve the music best at this moment, then I want the freedom to play it, and when I believe the music needs to be frantic or disturbing, then that's what it gets.

And that's what Creative Recording means to me as well. It's not "do it the hardcore way or you suck". It's "do what works best for you and the music" and if you truly feel auto-tuning will serve the music, then by all means, use it and BE PROUD! (but, you know... just keep it to yourself next time, ok?)

Then again, maybe I'll feel differently in the morning.

*just to clarify: I by no means feel all creative improvising musicians are sonic masturbators. I have seen plenty, young and old, who are, but I've also seen some GREAT improvisers play, and they make music, IMO, that is dynamic, beautiful, scary, rich, varied, complex, simple and exciting, and is on par with any other great pre-composed music ever created.

curtiswyant · Post by **curtiswyant** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:54 am

Perfection is boring. I'd say if you didn't notice the mistake while tracking, then it's probably not a big deal.

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:35 am

DrummerMan wrote:..."Oh, there was a fucked up setting somewhere for some reason. Sorry 'bout that..."...

If I had a nickel for everytime I used this ruse... [/shakes head ruefully]

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:31 am

the rule is there is no rule.

non fretted instruments that are out of tune on a record w everything else in tune sound pretty grating to me.

your only obligation is to the song.

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:09 am

roscoenyc wrote:the rule is there is no rule.

non fretted instruments that are out of tune on a record w everything else in tune sound pretty grating to me.

your only obligation is to the song.

and to the person paying for your work.

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:19 am

^indeed

Slider · Post by **Slider** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:31 am

I've tuned more than a few pedal steel notes. Whatever needs to be done.

dsw · Post by **dsw** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:36 am

If it has a front porch vibe, leave it alone.
If the track is more sophisticated, fix it.

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:11 am

1) does the out-of tune thing kill the song?

2) is re-recording an option? iow, is the player still available to you?

3) is the player good enough that the performance can be equalled or surpassed with a minimum of sturm und drang?

Answering these questions will help guide your decision.

One more thing: the out-of-tune Duane Allman slide guitar on "Layla" is buried waaay far back in the mix --probably because of how out of tune it is-- and still manages to stick out like a neon thumb and make most listeners think "oh geex, there's that out-of-tune Duane Allman part again. If only his most well-known licks were actually in tune, what a lovely world it would be."

So there's that to consider. Autotune may be a passing fad, but out of tune is forever.

sad iron · Post by **sad iron** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:41 am

roscoenyc wrote:the rule is there is no rule.

non fretted instruments that are out of tune on a record w everything else in tune sound pretty grating to me.

your only obligation is to the song.

Yeah, this is a pretty involved, anthemic song (an ode to the last day of GWB's presidency. pretty amazing tune), with walls of guitar, mandolin, pad steel part, steel solo, 8-10 part gang vocals, lead vox and close harmony; about 30 tracks altogether. the steel part in question is the solo, so not much room to hide. It's not badly out of tune and what is is only in places, but there's so much going on that it was sticking out to me last night. I'm going to go back to it tonight and see how it sits with me.

The player is available to me, but honestly, the performance is what matters and this performance is great. I'd rather have this performance a little pitchy than a less inspired performance perfectly in tune. Hoping to strike a balance. Perhaps it's all much ado about nothing.

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:47 am

sad iron wrote:I'd rather have this performance a little pitchy than a less inspired performance perfectly in tune.

rock on.

kayagum · Post by **kayagum** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:31 pm

You can always get an extra take or two, and see if any of them top the original.

It never ceases to amaze me how often the verdict is clarified when you have something tangible to compare the original track to, instead of making the judgement strictly in your head.

I've had it work both ways (sometimes I keep, sometimes I change it out for the newer take, sometimes I just toss the whole part).

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