Recording Level Experts Needed

[jabadeer]

Ok, so you all have me convinced that recording hot is horrible (for quite awhile actually, i am about to record a big project so i want to double check all this stuff)

After reading the recording levels thread here and searching the net, it appears that with the digi 002, i should shoot for levels averaging around -14dbfs, and using sonalksis free g, i should watch for the numbers by RMS to be around -14.

I will be recording live vocals, so i think i can handle that, but here is a question. We like recording with a compressor, ITB. Should i make sure the vocals are hitting -14 and then add then compression, or should i add the compression and then hit -14 after that??? Sometimes it seems the vocals get buried when we are tracking, how can i make sure they can hear themselves without clipping anything??

Guitar will be through DI into Wagner Sharp and then voxengo boogex. We usually bounce all the tracks live on the fly to save processing power. However, we are not sure how to hit these. Should the guitar be at max volume, the preamp cranked as high as it needs to be to sound good, and then the final output from voxengo be turned down so the bounce occurs around -14? We are using very high gain sounds by the way.

Bass isn't quite as confusing, seems like we will just be going straight to a track, DI, so i will try to hit around -14 here. Most sound enhancements will be in post.

I will be using Samples and or virtual instruments for alot of tracks.
For keyboards and drums, we will be using all samples. When I bounce to disk, should i bounce at levels of around -14 to match with the other stuff?

Thats all for now, I'm sure more questions will come with answers. Thanks to all for the help!

[MoreSpaceEcho]

when i'm tracking i try to keep everything (except kick and snare) under -16dbfs PEAK. which seems crazy low at first, but when you go to mix it helps a lot, you don't have to worry about running out of headroom on the mix buss so much...

[Al_Huero]

I think that's pretty much it as well. Keep all of your signals around there (regardless of what they pass through on the way in) and you should be fine.

[jabadeer]

when i'm tracking i try to keep everything (except kick and snare) under -16dbfs PEAK. which seems crazy low at first, but when you go to mix it helps a lot, you don't have to worry about running out of headroom on the mix buss so much...

JW what your kick and snare are at?

Also, guys, thanks for the help, but can you specifically address my questions???

I am aware that it is beneficial, i don't need to know about that...

[thecheat]

Play back your tracks. Lean REALLY REALLY CLOSE to the speakers.


Mabye even do this while you're recording.

Does it sound good?

Great. You're done.


Ok that was a total dick thing to say.

But seriously recording into a compressor isnt going to change the relationship you're talking about. Just dont kill it with the compressor or your recording levels will be the least of your worries.

Chris

[Al_Huero]

As far as your playback level during tracking, adjust the faders in PTLE and use low-latency monitoring to get a decent headphone mix--this won't affect your signal levels going in. Alternatively, if you have a mixer feeding the 002, set up your headphone mix on that.

[Al_Huero]

And I think you're missing the point of the lower signal levels. As MSE indicated, it's primarily to avoid overloading the mix bus (your final 2-track output). Where you set your final master output level (which is what I assume you're going to bounce to disc), is somewhat of a separate issue. You don't want peaks to go over 0; and if you're going to send it out for someone else to master, you should leave at least 3-4 dB of headroom for them.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

JW what your kick and snare are at?

-12, -11...whatever it takes.

i don't watch the meters all that closely, the exact numbers aren't important, the idea is just that you want to leave loads of headroom ahead of the converters. if you're using samples ITB you don't have that issue but the thinking still applies because it makes it easier to mix if you're not having to juggle the basic levels a lot.

so to that end, when i'm getting tracking levels i listen with all the playback faders at zero and just get a decent balance and press record. so like, there's no reason to track a really distorted guitar or some square wave synth sound up at even -10 because you're invariably just going to have to turn it down a bunch.

i know you asked for specifics but i don't track through plugins or use samples so i dunno. but basically monitor with the faders all at zero, make sure you have loads of headroom on the master fader, get a nice balance and go.

and like Al_Huero said, you really want to leave at least 3-4db headroom on the final mix for the ME (whether it's you or someone else). and even tracking at conservative levels it's still pretty easy for the whole mix to get right up there, so i've been tracking at continuously lower levels for like the past year as it just makes it so much easier to mix when you have tons of headroom on the master, and you're not having to lower the track faders (or put in a gain plug) 12db just so you can work...

[farview]

I will be recording live vocals, so i think i can handle that, but here is a question. We like recording with a compressor, ITB.

Why? if the vocalist likes to hear the compression, you can monitor with the compression without recording it. You can't undo compression. With hardware compression, you have to record it, but ITB, there is no reason to.

Should i make sure the vocals are hitting -14 and then add then compression, or should i add the compression and then hit -14 after that???

The level needs to be at -14 beofre it goes into the compressor. The whole point of having the levels at -14 is so you don't push the mic preamp or the converters. The compressor is ITB, so it is AFTER the converters and the level is irrelevant once you get ITB.

Sometimes it seems the vocals get buried when we are tracking, how can i make sure they can hear themselves without clipping anything??

Turn the music down. Recording level should never be turned up to fix a monitor level problem (or mix problem). Recording level and monitoring level are two different things.

Guitar will be through DI into Wagner Sharp and then voxengo boogex. We usually bounce all the tracks live on the fly to save processing power. However, we are not sure how to hit these. Should the guitar be at max volume, the preamp cranked as high as it needs to be to sound good, and then the final output from voxengo be turned down so the bounce occurs around -14? We are using very high gain sounds by the way.

You can only turn the guitar up so loud before it clips the converters. Once it does, it will not get any louder and it will sound bad. Set the level of the guitar (without the amp sim turned on) so that the loudest peaks get up to about -3dbfs. Then turn on the amp sim, and set the output of that to -14.

Side note: Once you are in the computer, the level really doesn't matter. The only reason I told you to set the output of the Boogex to -14 is because everything else in the mix will be at that level. It just makes it easier to mix.

Bass isn't quite as confusing, seems like we will just be going straight to a track, DI, so i will try to hit around -14 here. Most sound enhancements will be in post.

With bass, you can just tell him to hit a loud note and sustain it. Set that to -14 and keep an eye on the peaks.

I will be using Samples and or virtual instruments for alot of tracks.
For keyboards and drums, we will be using all samples. When I bounce to disk, should i bounce at levels of around -14 to match with the other stuff?

Yes, but like I said befre, it's really only to match the other stuff. It also help keep you from clipping the main output so easily.


Now I have a question: Why did you pick -14 instead of -18 that keeps being talked about everywhere? Did you call Digi and ask how the converters were calibrated?

[chris harris]

Play back your tracks. Lean REALLY REALLY CLOSE to the speakers.


Mabye even do this while you're recording.

Does it sound good?

Great. You're done.


Ok that was a total dick thing to say.

Not a dick thing to say at all.

1. Close the window that shows you the meters.
2. Turn up the gain on your preamps until the signal coming back out of your monitors sounds good.
3. Take a look at those meters. If the red light isn't on, you're good. It doesn't matter where your levels are as long as it sounds good.

[jabadeer]

Not a dick thing to say at all.

1. Close the window that shows you the meters.
2. Turn up the gain on your preamps until the signal coming back out of your monitors sounds good.
3. Take a look at those meters. If the red light isn't on, you're good. It doesn't matter where your levels are as long as it sounds good.

I appreciate everyones comments. I eventually want to move towards the more organic method that you guys all work in, but for now, the budget call s for samples

And subatomic pieces - i hope this isn't a dick thing to say, but go take a look at the thread on the forum called "recording levels" I don't want to get into it here, but even if something sounds good and isnt in the red, it doesnt mean that it will result in the best product in the end. That is what I gathered from that.

And Farview, i may be misinterpreting, but -18 isn't the standard, i believe, just a safe level if you don't know what your equipment is calibrated at. I believe my digi 002 is calibrated at -14, based on this thread http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.ph ... light=dbfs

you can go here for the original source, page 46
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/d ... th_002.pdf

again, thanks everyone and if i am misinterpreting anythign please let me know!!

[farview]

And Farview, i may be misinterpreting, but -18 isn't the standard, i believe, just a safe level if you don't know what your equipment is calibrated at. I believe my digi 002 is calibrated at -14, based on this thread http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.ph ... light=dbfs

You are correct. -18 is just the default number used in explanations. According to that thread, you are also correct that you converters are calibrated to -14.

I was asking because I have run into people asking what the digi stuff is calibrated to and no one seem to know the answer, so I was wondering if you found the answer. (you did)

When wondering about these sorts of things, keep the signal path in mind.

mic->mic preamp->converters->software

The Digi002 has the preamp and converters in it.

Anything you do in the software, like plugins, level adjustment, etc... happens AFTER the converters. Once you get past the converters, the level really doesn't matter until you send it back out through the converters.

The level only really matters on the analog side. i.e. the preamps and the converters.

[chris harris]

And subatomic pieces - i hope this isn't a dick thing to say, but go take a look at the thread on the forum called "recording levels" I don't want to get into it here, but even if something sounds good and isnt in the red, it doesnt mean that it will result in the best product in the end. That is what I gathered from that.

I'm pretty sure I contributed to that thread. I've contributed to several of them.

You can try to figure out the "correct" "values" and "numbers" all day long. But, in the end, you're just spinning your wheels.

There are some people who will intellectualize this stuff to death. I bet that most of them don't get much fun recording done.

All the numbers that have been thrown around were simply to illustrate one simple point: It is no longer necessary to record levels as hot as possible short of 0dBfs.

That's it. That's what you were supposed to take from those threads. But, now, the same people who were obsessively trying to get to -0.01dBfs on their meters, are obsessing over exactly which value they're supposed to be shooting for on the meters. IT ALL COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT!

If it sounds good, it IS good.

[farview]

That's it. That's what you were supposed to take from those threads. But, now, the same people who were obsessively trying to get to -0.01dBfs on their meters, are obsessing over exactly which value they're supposed to be shooting for on the meters. IT ALL COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT!

This is true. All this talk about levels is about gain staging. It is also a guideline, not an absolute.

The idea is to get the signal into the sweetspot of every piece of gear that it goes through. Most of the time, that sweetspot is line level.

Now, there are plenty of preamps that like to be pushed harder. If you have one of them, go ahead and push it. There really are no rules. If it sounds good, it is good.

But, if you want to abuse the equipment, you should probably have a handle on what it was designed to do and how it was meant to work. Thus all the proper gain staging lectures...

[BusyBoxSt7]

another possibly odd practice that's rarely mentioned:

If you like the way your preamps sound running hot (or even some converters), you can always track them hot and then use a basic gain/trim plug after tracking and permanently shrink the tracks back down to lower peaks... thus getting the hot pre sound, having the mix headroom, and not using a trim plug in the "racks".

btw, if this stuff gives you problems w/ guitar cabs (or if you respect your ears), try the THD hot plate. It made getting good guitar sounds WAY easier for me.