Please recommend a 16" crash cymbal.

kilsin · Post by **kilsin** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:26 am

Please recommend a crash cymbal. I play in 2 bands with with one drummer. One band is a rock band and the other is metal/punk/hardcore. I record this guy all the time. He wants to stick with Sabian for some reason? However all suggestions are more than welcome.

A few months ago I read in a TapeOp mag. how important good cymbals are to a recording. After tracking a song with a minor crack in a cymbal I now can fully back that up, Duh... I made the mistake of saying yeah lets record the song anyways. The crack is not that noticeable. In the room I thought I could hear it cutting through the mix. During playback every time he hits that cymbal it sounds like he missed it all together.

I think he keeps buying the same cymbal and cracking it every few years. Maybe crashes crack after a few years I'm not really sure. Or maybe it's a poor choice. Also, I think it would be hard to decide on a cymbal choice in a store, playing it on your own kit would be ideal.

dynomike · Post by **dynomike** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:40 am

Hmm.

Sabian cymbals aren't bad. They make a lot of nice cymbals in fact. I tend to prefer old (unlabeled) Zildjian A's for most stuff, or current production K's. I also prefer larger crashes (18", 20") and often use 20" rides as crashes, but I know this isn't for everyone. However if your dude is breaking crashes all the time, maybe its time to get a heavier cymbal.... And treat it right.

As for the cracking: Does he tighten the cymbal down too tight? Does he always use felts on the top and bottom of the cymbal? Plastic tube in the cymbal hole so its not rubbing on the threads of the stand? I do all these things and I've never cracked a cymbal. Is it a keyhole crack or a crack at the edge? Either one can be related to an overtightened cymbal...

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:05 am

Cracking is generally the result of one or both of to things:

Bad packaging during shipping.

Poor technique.

Yes, cymbals do crack on occasion,with some people more than others. I've broken WAY more cymbals than I have drum heads, but I haven't broken a cymbal in like eight or nine years.

I don't know of any that are totally indestructible. All of them have the potential to crack. Unfortunately, it's often the thinner and more delicate ones that sound nice to our ears, so there's a balance to be found between the player's technique and the sound he's shooting for. If he loves the sound of this particular cymbal and keeps breaking them, but it happy to replace it with the same kind of cymbal, where's the issue?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Fakiekid · Post by **Fakiekid** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:14 am

i once got some blurb from a rep saying that thinner cymbals are actually less susceptible to cracking as thicker harder cymbals make them more brittle :S! I think thats balls but there may be truth behind that. I've always had A custom projection crashes, gorgeous poppy tone to them, i play a 17'' and a 19'' along with a K custom dark 22'' which has a gorgeous tone when crashed. i dont tighten the cymbals down at all, just the bottom felts.

now i would say i play hard but not on the crashes, i think a good drummer balances themselves out and usually tht means hitting cymbals a bit softer.

asmara · Post by **asmara** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:49 am

thinner cymbals will pretty much ALWAYS be more prone to cracks than a thicker counterpoint. Sabians are well made in general (though I much prefer Zildjian and Istanbul for what I play). It is more than likely technique and if the drummer is that heavy handed I would steer them towards the heavier weight bronze.
I do think that cracked cymbals can sound very interesting however. Small cracks can be very easily modified to prevent cracks from worsening as well.
Good luck

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:05 am

Testing Cymbals along with your kit is the best way to get an idea of how it'll sound in context. Obviously it isn't always possible to have your kit at the shop, or to bring the cymbal home to try it out. What I've done before is to bring a snare (hopefully one that sounds somewhat like the snare you use, or even your own snare) into the shop's "cymbal room". That way, you can do some hits with snare and crash. Having a Bass Drum in there as well would be even better, but alot of those cymbal rooms are kind of small, and that might be a harder idea to get over on the salesperson. With crash cymbals this is especially important because 80% of the time it's being played with some other drum. Ride cymbals, not so big a deal, IMO.

In terms of cymbal thickness and cracking. I hadn't heard that theory about thicker cymbals being more susceptible, but I will say that I've only really play thin cymbals and I haven't cracked one yet, except for a bottom Hi Hat, which is thicker, and truthfully, all the cracked cymbals I've seen in my life (as best I can remember) have been pretty thick. It actually makes sense if you think about the fact that thinner cymbals are more flexible and would therefor take a hit better, as opposed to a stiff thick cymbal, which doesn't have as much "give".

I haven't bought a Sabian cymbal in years, so I don't know too much about what they're putting out now, except stay away from the B8 and B8 "pro". It'd be pretty obvious once you hear them, but they're beginner cymbals and every one I've heard sounds tinny and horrible. The best purely "crash" cymbal I own is an old 70's or early 80's Paiste. I know they're still making some nice stuff. If your drummer is dead set on Sabian, then just try it all out.

Funny, I just went on to youtube to see if I could find some sabian crash "tests". There's tons of them but, at least, the first 10 I tried were all just the cymbals by themselves. I couldn't really tell how the cymbals sounded at all. Actually, they all kind of sounded like shit to me

except for the AAX "explosion" 17" crash, but who knows, on a kit the AAX could totally not work and all those other shitty cymbals could be perfect.

Anyways.... good luck with your search.

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:26 am

I have a ton of experience hearing Sabian cymbals, by my association with Jojo Mayer... he gave me a few dozen for the studio, and I have gotten to hear a bunch more on gigs and such... I think Sabian cymbals are generally better than Zildjian these days, although the Constantinople K's are sometimes very very good, better than anything else out there for 'that' sound from a new cymbal.

Sabian AAX and HHX lines have some really nice crashes, and despite the association, the Evolution line (Dave Weckl's signature line) has some really really good crashes. I have a few of the AAX Stage Crashes in 17" and 16", and they are all really good. I have an Xxplosion Crash or something that is cool, as well... The 'El Sabor' line can be suprisingly good for rock crashes as well, if you want something short and bright, but not splashy...

maybe I'm biased, but the Sabian crashes I have here are all really great, and drummers usually prefer them to whatever they brought in... Paiste can rule, and they are extremely consistent... I am more of a fan of their crashes than rides, though... aside from some old 602s, I've felt that Paiste rides lack character and personality... again, YMMV.

now I need to get some really dark and quiet hihats for all those bashers with loud, heavy, clangy hats....

John

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:49 am

i'm an old Zidjian guy. always will be. I love the old ones with no silkscreening just a subtle "Zidjian" stamp in the metal. Sabians are not supposed to be as good as Zidjian, but heres the thing, when the patriarch of the company passed away in 79 his sons split the company into Zidjian and Sabian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian
So I guess any differences are personal taste. Now Meinl and Paiste can go suck it. I hate those cymbals. It still shocks me that anyone even buys paiste.

themagicmanmdt · Post by **themagicmanmdt** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:53 am

honestly, between the three major makers of cymbals, I found they all excel at different volumes.

for example.

zildjian A and K's, to me, are thin cymbals. when you really lay into them, they splash more than they chime. they sound GORGEOUS, however, when you play them very, very lightly. as part of a jazz combo. or, if the drummer plays light handedly. their overtones and harmonics are the best out there.

next up are paiste's. they're definitely more bell-like and louder than zildjian's, and you can hit them hard and they'll still have a lot of sustain. their main note is more defined than a zildjian. i feel they have the best dynamic range of any cymbal out there. (my studio cymbals are paiste 2002 red and black labels, as well as one of their 24" giant beat ride/crashes. one word: VERSATILE)

sabians are the sluggers cymbal. they come off as being usually thicker, having the least amount of harmonics and the most volume. this isn't a bad thing! it's all relative. they don't have much 'splash' character, their bells have a lot of ping to them, and due to their heftiness, it's like hitting a piece of raw metal. i can't say i enjoy recording sabians. they're nice live, but in the studio, they've always had the case of hitting a garbage can lid to me.

check out paiste 2002.

whoa.

this is a long post.

what's wrong with me?

i need to go outside.

ckeene · Post by **ckeene** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 am

this is a little tangental, but any chance the drummer could switch to lighter sticks? I gradually went down from 2B>5B>5A and finally a 7A and it's very rare that I break cymbals or pit heads anymore. I was also able to get a better tone with thinner cymbals and heads, and still play with a lot of energy. At this point I'm not really a fan of heavy cymbals, and I also think that a lot of what makes older rock and roll great is the sound of lighter, washier cymbals that don't overwhelm guitar, which in turn don't overwhelm vocals.

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:48 am

I am all about thinner heads, thinner sticks, thinner picks etc. But 7's! dang! Are you playing timbales? I guess I like the thicker, pingier cymbals.

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:20 pm

timbale sticks are about 1/2 the width of 7A's.

7A's are not an oddly small size drum stick at all.

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:33 pm

calaverasgrandes wrote:It still shocks me that anyone even buys paiste.

Yeah, what the hell was John Bonham thinking, right??

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:42 pm

DrummerMan wrote:timbale sticks are about 1/2 the width of 7A's.

7A's are not an oddly small size drum stick at all.

I knew that, just foolin around. Kinda like saying, you use 9's on guitar? What are you playing mandolin! I've used 5's and 7's most of the time depending on style of music.
I think a lot of drummers with tendonitis/RSS would do well to tune their drums better and downsize their sticks. Or stop fighting the guitarist and MAKE them turn down. I have actually seen a drummer lose it on a guitarist over this. "Look man I have to use my arms and legs to keep up with you when you turn all the way up! I am destroying my body to keep up with your volume!". guitarist "uh, jeez, ok no prob, yikes...".

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:46 pm

DrummerMan wrote:
calaverasgrandes wrote:It still shocks me that anyone even buys paiste.
Yeah, what the hell was John Bonham thinking, right??

he was probably drunk when he bought those.
Besides, vistalites? C'mon they look cool but they always buzz at the seam. ended up caulking mine with clear silicone.

but for reals, Bonham is in that league with Hendrix, Jaco etc. Guys that would shred regardless of the gear, not because of it.

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Please recommend a 16" crash cymbal.

Please recommend a 16" crash cymbal.

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