Let's talk a little more about high quality VCR audio...

[nopenopenope]

I think, well, I HOPE what the original poster was referring to was digital audio on the VCR, in which case, it's fine for CD quality. In a pinch it would do, but, I wouldn't use it for masters.

you're thinking of Betamax tapes. back in the day, they were used as a cost effective way to digitize audio.

Seems like if you record just audio input, it doesn't end up recording the tracking or timecode or whatever information it needs to play back correctly. Maybe it's just something weird about the machine I was using.

VHS's timecode is built into the video signal in between frames - it's called blackburst. if there's no frames, then no timecode. perhaps some units "assume" you want timecode and make blank frames.

[Slider]

As if we need more proof that VHS sounds bad, I found my earliest VHS recordings on youtube. I was barely in high school at the time and DAT was way too expensive for us.
It's not really fair to blame VHS as I didn't know what the hell I was doing either. The weirdest part is to this day I remember exactly every mic I used and where they were placed. I also remember the exact drum heads, amp\cab everything. seriously, it's a curse.

Check out the constant phase shifter sound of the high end.
I defy anyone to bring back that sound as a cool retro trend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKDLlxu ... re=related

[Judas Jetski]

OK, I finally, FINALLY, FINALLY got to check out the audio quality of that stupid Toshiba VCR. Preliminary investigation seems to indicate that this is going to sound really, really good. No audible whine, some hiss, but much lower noise floor than some other analog media I have used. Handles transient peaks somewhat differently than conventional analog audiotape. At the moment, I can't really see what everyone's griping about as far as sound quality goes. If I was trying to go all-analog and recording low-fi, I'd be more than happy to hit my results to this particular deck. Seems very flat and accurate at the moment.

I tested it by running a CD into it, recording some of the CD, and then A/B'ing the results. I couldn't directly switch back and forth between CD and Hi-fi VCR for absolute A/B, but with a few seconds' pause between while I switched things around there was very little noticeable degradation. Next step is going to be to set it up on my console with monitors and see what I get. Then I need to see what my other hi-fi VCR does with this recording. I also have yet to experiment with type I dbx NR.

Does anyone--especially the "haters" --have any ideas for ways I could evaluate this medium for its shortcomings? I'd like to really put this process through its paces to see what I come up with.

EDIT: I should point out that I also have a Sony DAT player that I'm trying to resurrect. Because I want to. I want to know exactly what I've missed as far as the development of audio goes, and I want to know exactly why any given media has gone by the wayside. Also, I want to find the absolutely cheapest way to get absolutely stellar sound out of my hi-fi. So whatever doesn't work out in the studio will probably work out in my living room.

[rwc]

When I was 13, I had this lame sony boombox. it was 3 piece, it sucked. but it was all I had.

I found a record player and denon stereo at my grandma's house. It was really cool looking, and from the late 60s.. it was REALLY cool looking, compared to that stupid sony. wood vs plastic. it was the "mini" system of the time, and I thought it was amazing.

I opened it up and fixed some holes in the drivers, it sounded better, and replaced the wiring so it wouldn't go in and out if I tipped them around.

I was so excited to compare it with what I had at home. I finally did, and... wow. In an A/B comparison, that old denon was worse in every way than my plasticy, square, lame-o-from-kmart sony 3 piece tape player, for any music I put through it.

there is such a COOLNESS attached to older stuff. We have a tendency to root for the "little guy", and, well, modern digital in a sweetwater ad just isn't something to root for vs. the "thrown out and discarded" older stuff. and older often looks, and works cooler. nostalgic.

I just don't understand the point of it in a world where the burr brown PCM4222 exists for $150, and the existence of fifty billion mic preamp DIY kits makes finding cheap good 15v PSUs on the internet easier than checking email.

It might be interesting in a "zomgz, i can record music onto my vcr!!!" kind of gimmicky way. or in a "rooting for the old guy" kind of thing, but in 2008.. there are a million ways to get cheap, amazing audio reproduction without dealing with the shitty reliability of vcr tape. if I had a penny for every time a vcr has eaten my cartoons, I'd have a gold case for my pcm4222. or the mediocre at best analog stages in an inexpensive consumer product.

attach a 4222 to that DAT(and a D/A that doesn't suck for the output, of course), and tell me it doesn't kick the living shit out of that VCR, and I'll eat my words.

I can't understand why someone would try this, other than to prove that you can. I completely understand that. I have a pentium 2 half open in my closet as my router with a perfectly good linksys sitting in the closet. I didn't even use a specific linux router distro, I put it together myself. Totally unnecessary for what I use it for now, but it's there because I like to see what I can do. I know I didn't spend five hours on that so I'd have superior NAT routing. Just don't fool yourself into ignoring alternatives because this one seems cooler.

[nopenopenope]

OK, I finally, FINALLY, FINALLY got to check out the audio quality of that stupid Toshiba VCR. Preliminary investigation seems to indicate that this is going to sound really, really good. No audible whine, some hiss, but much lower noise floor than some other analog media I have used. Handles transient peaks somewhat differently than conventional analog audiotape. At the moment, I can't really see what everyone's griping about as far as sound quality goes. If I was trying to go all-analog and recording low-fi, I'd be more than happy to hit my results to this particular deck. Seems very flat and accurate at the moment.

I tested it by running a CD into it, recording some of the CD, and then A/B'ing the results. I couldn't directly switch back and forth between CD and Hi-fi VCR for absolute A/B, but with a few seconds' pause between while I switched things around there was very little noticeable degradation. Next step is going to be to set it up on my console with monitors and see what I get. Then I need to see what my other hi-fi VCR does with this recording. I also have yet to experiment with type I dbx NR.

Does anyone--especially the "haters" --have any ideas for ways I could evaluate this medium for its shortcomings? I'd like to really put this process through its paces to see what I come up with.

EDIT: I should point out that I also have a Sony DAT player that I'm trying to resurrect. Because I want to. I want to know exactly what I've missed as far as the development of audio goes, and I want to know exactly why any given media has gone by the wayside. Also, I want to find the absolutely cheapest way to get absolutely stellar sound out of my hi-fi. So whatever doesn't work out in the studio will probably work out in my living room.

Please post!!

[farview]

This gripe depends on the deck: Some of them have an automatic level control similar to what is found in boom boxes. Feed it a signal that has a lot of dynamics. (unfortunately, you will have to dig hard to find a CD that hasn't been limited to death already) You will find that the louder the music gets, the smaller it gets.

If you are looking for 'analog tape sound', you aren't going to get it. There is no way to saturate the tape because the sound is turned into an FM signal (like FM radio) and mixed with the video before it is laid to tape. If there were any saturation, the tracking would go screwy and the sound would go away while the tape deck tried to find itself.


On to DAT. The biggest gripe about DAT is the built-in converters. If you have other converters to feed it, it can sound great. The main reason it fell out of favor is because it's tape. Hard drive based machines don't make you rewind and fast forward, the tapes don't get eaten or jammed, the mechanism doesn't wear out and cost $700 to fix... That's the big reason it went away.

The main downside now is that it is 16 bit and any cheap M-audio computer interface has converters that are an order of magnatude better. Add to that the cost of repair (which is about the cost of a new laptop or a decent interface AND 2 terabytes of storage) and you have the death of digital tape.

I have two DAT machines. I don't think I have turned them on in the last 5 years. And the last time I used one was to play some tapes that were recorded in the mid 90's to remaster an old project. One of the tapes wouldn't play...

I also have five DA88's left over from the same era. (three of them still work) I do use these from time to time. Sometimes because I seem to be the only one in the area that has working machines, so anyone wanting to ressurect an old project has to come here. Sometimes I get hired to do live recording and my audio computer is gigantic and doesn't want to be moved. (the case is so deep that it would cost me $1600 to get a shock mount road case for it. The computer only cost $2300. Plus everything is all wired into a patchbay, yadda, yadda, yadda...)

There is nothing wrong with digital tape, it just isn't as cheap and convienient as hard drive based storage. BTW, digital tape doesn't give you any of the 'tape sound'. It gives you the sound of the converters, just like any other digital medium.

[Judas Jetski]

It doesn't compare to 1/4" half track.

I have to say, that's probably true. I never find myself wishing I could use NR on my mixdown deck, but I want to try something here.

RWC, as soon as I can get that DAT going I'll have something to compare. Actually, I could just A/B it with my CD player but that'll have to wait too. Play-time's over for today.


Edited for quote clarity

[Judas Jetski]

This gripe depends on the deck: Some of them have an automatic level control similar to what is found in boom boxes. Feed it a signal that has a lot of dynamics. (unfortunately, you will have to dig hard to find a CD that hasn't been limited to death already) You will find that the louder the music gets, the smaller it gets.

OK, that sounds cool. I'll start messing around there. I've got some older CDs which are probably not all smashed to hell and gone and see what I get.

If you are looking for 'analog tape sound', you aren't going to get it. There is no way to saturate the tape because the sound is turned into an FM signal (like FM radio) and mixed with the video before it is laid to tape. If there were any saturation, the tracking would go screwy and the sound would go away while the tape deck tried to find itself.

Yeah, that's actually what caught my interest. I was onto some old Racal data storage decks a year or so ago, and that got me thinking about FM analog audio recording. If there's something useful I hope to get out of this, it's that there's a specific sound to this particular method of recording that might be good for something. That, and maybe something for all the flat-busted die-hard punk-rock knuckleheads out there who already spent $100 on a Tascam 424 and now have $25 left to buy a mixdown deck at the local Salvation Army.

On to DAT....I have two DAT machines. I don't think I have turned them on in the last 5 years. And the last time I used one was to play some tapes that were recorded in the mid 90's to remaster an old project. One of the tapes wouldn't play...

Yeah, I think that pretty much sums up DAT, and that's about exactly why I started messing with hi-fi VCR before I started messing with DAT. However, I can't argue with the entry price for my DAT deck (it was free). If I was going to use DAT I'd probably just use it like you do--to revisit old stuff. That, or it might be fun to hook it up to my stereo just so I could say I have one.

What is the bit rate of the converters on those DA-88's? Are they 16 bit like DAT?

[farview]

What is the bit rate of the converters on those DA-88's? Are they 16 bit like DAT?

The bit depth is 16 bit. Tascam made 24 bit versions. The DA-98 and the DA-78. They supposedly sound great, but it came out too late for anyone to care.

The DA series machines were built like tanks and didn't have the problems that ADAT's did. TV stations used to use these.

[Judas Jetski]

Yeah, I've got a DA-38. It showed up at my doorstep as the solution to a problem I was having at the time. I like it. Very intuitive. I think I'd like the 78 or 98 better, but they're a little pricier.

The A/D converters in those things... pretty good? Or kinda lame?

[Judas Jetski]

OK, I hooked up some dbx type I NR to my little "test system." Huge difference. There's still a little bit of hiss, but nothing like what was there before. Also, the kinds of sounds the dbx fails to eliminate are less obtrusive than those present before. It's not dead silent, that's for sure.

If I was to guesstimate, I'd say it sounds as good as or better than the ReVox A-77 I had briefly. That's going from memory, and was over a year ago, so take it as you will. But when I sat back and thought "now what does this remind me of?" that deck was the first thing that came to mind. That deck was a quarter-track deck, had a max. speed of 7.5 ips., and had heads in good condition.

The upshot of my adventures so far is this: a Mitsubishi hi-fi VCR sounds pretty good for FM-analog recording. With dbx type I NR it sounds considerably better, possibly as good as high-end consumer-grade quarter-track reel-to-reel. What I'm hearing sounds very clean, solid and un-distorted, but I'm monitoring through a seriously old consumer-grade home stereo so I'm not sure what's the stereo and what's the tape.

Next step is going to be for me to A/B it against some digital sources, hopefully DAT and definitely CD-R. I also need to come up with some nice, spiky material to see if this particular VCR has an annoying limiter like what Farview was talking about.

[farview]

The A/D converters in those things... pretty good? Or kinda lame?

Pretty good for 12 years ago... Again, the context changes as time moves on. The best converters in 1985 sound like garbage compared to the cheap stuff that everyone complains about now.

There was nothing wrong with them at the time, but time and technology has marched on and most 24 bit converters on the market now will sound better.

[Judas Jetski]

I keep walking past piles of old VHS movies at the Salvation Army, thinking "geez, with the right VCR deck, all that old crap would suddenly become high quality tape stock for the right person...."

...Just sayin'...

[ampguy]

The key is hi-fi, I don't need a video input, just use the rca audio in/out jacks, and have to use the remote to select the proper inputs (there are rf, rear rca, and front rca), and to use hi-fi mode.

I also use SVHS ET and SP mode, 2 hours of audio per tape is good for me.