let's talk vintage snare drums

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:04 pm

ok - i am not a drummer. mostly i play guitars (and some keys and bass) but
occasionally i get to play some drums and i have a kit at my studio and
some snares and cymbals as options for bands i record.

a friend wants to trade his 60s slingerland snare for some recording time
and i am checking it out.

it's a silver sparkle wood snare - 8 lugs. - 3 ply - 5 ? ? X 14 - rapid strainer
etc.

i think it's basically the same model as this but sparkle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-60s-SLINGER ... 240%3A1318

here's the thing - i am not a collector and i will only keep it if it offers a
different tone from my other drums. it's definitely different from my bronze
ludwig but my other snare is a champagne sparkle olympic (6 lugs - 3 ply)
and it seems to sound (to my untrained ears) to be in the same ballpark.

this looks a lot like my olympic: http://neworleans.craigslist.org/msg/877201720.html

are these drums quite different?

also - i find on both of these wood snares i find i get a lot of the note - a lot
of strong overtone that is hard to take out. both have coated ambassador
heads and the olympic has a clear remo bottom head and the slingerland
has a coated bottom head. how do you get rid of this super strong note? i
use moongels and o-rings but it's still pretty strong. (do you tune the btm
head a little above your top head or vice versa)

i have been learning and practicing to tune them but i could really use
some pointers from those talented drummers/engineers on this board...
there is a time and place for ringy snares and i have just come out of a few
years of loving that but i have a few projects coming up that want more
muted dry drum sounds and less long resonance from the kit so i need to
explore how to make drums sound more that way acoustically - and then
how to accentuate that in the recording process.

FWIW i love thick chunky snares - been listening to the latest joe henry
albums - anything jay bellerose plays on - the national - all great snare
sounds. the drums on the last gillian welch (soul journey). thick but not too
ringy. lower tuned.

i also wanted to try putting larger(wider?) snares on my drums as i recorded
a dummer with a metal gretch snare recently and he had large/wide snares
on his - it sounded EXCELLENT but they don't sit properly on my olympic.

would they work on this slingerland?

alright - teach me gurus.

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:59 am

Well, I'll gladly give you my opinion, though I'm sure there are others who have more technical knowledge of drums and their construction and will have plenty to add. This is just my "lifetime of drumming for idiots" approach. Please take it as such.

Having an 8 lug drum will help in that you have more control over how it's tuned. Tuning it properly will result in less ringing overtones, and if you desire it (as I usually do) less fundamental tone as well. I've got pretty much the same snare you're looking at getting (though mine is red sparkle) and I love it, though it's not the first drum I go to. My main drum is a metal round badge gretsch which I only use more because it has some sort of magical property to it that makes it always sound great, but the fact is I can get pretty much any kind of tone out of either drum. I know people put alot of stock in what a drum is made out of and how it affects the sound, but I find that rings more true when you're dealing with a more open sounding instrument. My 3rd snare is one of those Hand Hammered Bronze Ludwigs (is that the same as you have?). Man, what a LOUD fucking drum that is. I almost never use it live because it just seems out of balance with every other drum I own. I'll record with it when I want a real "pro" sounding open rock snare that just fucking CUTS, but if I detune it and treat it like I do my gretsch or slingerland, it sounds pretty much exactly the same (except a little louder). I'm only saying this because it seems like the sound you're going for would be achieved with a lower tuned drum.

When playing jazz, I always tune the snare to sound like a timbale when the snare is off. I just try and match it with the sound in my head of Max Roach on St.Thomas, and it usually works out great. This is NOT the sound I believe you are looking for. For most rock applications I tend to tune the top head down until it starts to, you know, thud more. I keep the snares themselves pretty loose, like only tight enough so they all vibrate. Too tight and you'll choke the drum, which will bring out more shitty overtones. Same with the bottom head, usually just tight enough so that the head doesn't have any "wobbles" in it (which is pretty tight for a snare bottom), and check around the edge to make sure it's mostly it tune with itself. Then, if I want it tighter, I usually do a 1/2 turn on the lugs surrounding the snare-ends ONLY. Be careful with over tightening the bottom head as when you try to detune it, the head can become concave due to being previously stretched. That will leave you with a non-flat surface for your snares to rest on, creating uneven snare tension (This is a bit of advice I got from someone a long time ago and I have followed it ever since. It may be BS but it kind of makes sense to me, and I've never since then had problems with snare tuning (I think) so I must be doing something right).

I don't know what kind of coated head you have on the bottom of your drum now, but I would suggest just getting a fresh clear Remo snare bottom head, and just use Coated Ambassadors on top. I tend to use a regular-sized set of snares and have never felt like I was lacking, but I know drummers who I greatly respect who use the mega-wide thingies and they sound good too. I do generally buy the Pure Sound snares (for some reason every snare drum I acquire is in need of snares and they always had these at Drummer's World in NYC where I used to do all my shopping), and again, I never thought too much about it, but my snare drums always sound good.

Depending on the style of music, I'll dampen the top head some. First with the folded tape method, starting near the rim, like so:

DO NOT just keep putting down flat pieces of tape down on the drum wondering why it's not taking away any of the shit you want to get rid and is in fact making it worse, because, again, you're choking the drum, which results in more ringing crap.

If I really want it dead, I'll use a (I guess you call them) "tone-rings" or "o rings" (though "lack-of-tone ring" would be more like it). You can buy these, or just do what I do cut one out of an old head, cuz that's pretty much all they are. I generally just use these when doing afrobeat or retro funk/soul stuff, though it can have it's place in rock too.

I guess your question was actually whether or not to trade this drum for recording time. I'd say "yes", because I'm always a sucker for a good barter, and I think you can never have too many snare drums, but I also think you can get most snares sounding how you want them with a little patience and experimentation, so I wouldn't say you need it to get the sound you're looking for.

I don't really know the examples you listed except for the National. I don't know what was used on all their records, but for most of the stuff on Alligator (the dirtier sounding stuff on the record), that was, in fact (I believe), my metal Gretsch snare that I was talking about, tuned down and treated exactly as I described.

I hope some of my rambling is helpful. Good luck.

the finger genius · Post by **the finger genius** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:28 am

If you're getting too much of the drum's fundamental "note", you may want to try using a coated emperor rather than an ambassador. This is double ply, and should help to deaden it a little bit.

farview · Post by **farview** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:39 am

You normally want to tune the bottom head pretty high.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:23 pm

thanks guys - that is helpful. i will mess around with those ideas. i'd love to hear from garges too if he wants to chime in - i know he's a drummer with a big collection of vintage drums.

is the tape method preferable over moongels? if so - why?

i've been playing the SLINGERLAND snare some more and i am liking it. i think it needs a new btm snare tho - i'd love to hear more goosh. also i'll swap out the coated btm head for a clear one. the snares seem a little warped and not all the snares are making contact flat with the btm head.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:37 pm

drummer man - what kind of gretsch snare do you use?

i have a lead on one i may buy - its chrome on brass - 6 lugs - from the 50s (supposedly) with round badge - is that similar to the one that you leant to the national?

DrummerMan · Post by **DrummerMan** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:57 pm

joninc wrote:drummer man - what kind of gretsch snare do you use?

i have a lead on one i may buy - its chrome on brass - 6 lugs - from the 50s (supposedly) with round badge - is that similar to the one that you leant to the national?

Mine is chrome on brass, but it's got 8 lugs. It looks exactly like this (though this one isn't mine):

As for tape vs. moongels, I can't answer that because I've never used moongels. Sorry.

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:46 pm

I think moongels are really great. A tiny bit will muffle the head very noticeably. They also don't leave a bunch of gooey stuff on your heads.

Judas Jetski · Post by **Judas Jetski** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:09 pm

My favorite snare is basically the exact same snare as in the auction, only mine's gold sparkle. The one in the pic is (I think) a one-ply maple drum. If the drum in question's construction matches this one, it's a definite keeper. If nothing else, it'll only appreciate in value.

As for tuning, I've always jacked mine way, way up, with the heads as tight as I dared, with the snare head about a half-step below the top head. Back in the day I was going for kind of a Bill Bruford "Fragile" sound (like on "Roundabout")--you know, "pong! Pong! Pong!" but lately I've developed a taste for more controlled overtones, so I use an Aquarian zero ring. If the "pong" gets to be a bit too much I can usually notch it a little using EQ. But then that sounds like about exactly the opposite of what you're looking for... so I'm not sure that actually helps. Still, like DrummerMan says, it never hurts to have a bunch of snares around.

It's funny, I've got a Mapex Orion which is all Maple as well, only plywood this time. It can get sounds similar to my Sling, but when it comes time to "get thumpy" it does a great job without complaining. I guess most people would say that's the mark of a better drum, but I'm not so sure. The Sling just feels nicer to play.

Those chrome-over-brass rims help a lot with the tone. So do the reinforcing hoops on the inside of the drum. It's totally different than the roundbadge Gretsch stuff, if you ask me. Just a completely different animal... a snarling beast of a snare which doesn't care if it co?perates with the other instruments.... When I'm using this snare I always wind up making the rest of the set just kinda go along with the snare... The snare kind of runs the show, with those drums... totally different than the Mapex or pretty much any other set I've had. Man, I just let that guy do what it wants, and let everything else try to keep up. What a drum... Jeez...

Look at me, waxing poetic. It must be past my bedtime or something.

*pulls self together*

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:20 pm

joninc wrote:thanks guys - that is helpful. i will mess around with those ideas. i'd love to hear from garges too if he wants to chime in - i know he's a drummer with a big collection of vintage drums.

I read the post, but I'm not sure what I could say that would be helpful. I think Drummerman pretty much hit the nail on the head.

A lot of classic vintage drums have very similar characteristics, but most of them sound different especially if they weren't stored or used under ideal conditions.

If the drum isn't in good shape (like the shell is out of round or the hoops are warped or the bearing edge is damaged), then the drum is going to be a total pain to get tensioned evenly, if it's even possible.

If you don't know a lot about drums, then the best thing you can do to get the best, most consistent results out of a particular drum is to put on new heads, both top and bottom, and a brand new set of snare wires. That way, you're starting with a clean slate and hopefully, new parts that are in good shape. Go with the most middle of the road stuff you can get (Remo coated Ambassador for the top and Remo Ambassador snare side head for the bottom and a decent set of 16 or 20-strand snare wires-- the Gibraltars are fine) and start messing with things from there. Experiment with different tunings and find what works for you. The only way to really learn about tuning drums is to do it over and over. The more you do it and the more you experiment with different tensions and head combinations and stuff, the better you'll get at figuring it out. Like most things in life of a similar ilk, there's no quick way to immediately get to the "right" way of doing it, whatever that is.

The advantage that you have here is that the drum belongs to someone you know. Take the drum and put it next to you r other drums and listen to it. Does it sound different? If so, then you probably want it. If not, then you might not. Better yet, see if you can use the drum for a bit to decide if you want it for sure. You're in a great position to use your ears on this one. Don't cheat yourself. I've heard a lot of vintage Slingerland snares that are very cool (calling Tony San Filippo!) and a few that are total dogs.

I've also played a ton of vintage 5x14 chrome over brass snares and they're all different. Those Gretsch drums sound absolutely NOTHING like my Rogers Powertone drum, which, with careful tuning can sound like the most obnoxious metal drum or the warmest wood-like drum.

For whatever it's worth, Moongel, tape, napkins, t-shirts, Zero rings, wallets, and cotton balls all sound different when used as muffling materials. Fortunately, trying almost all of those options will still cost you less than a new drumhead and will take almost no time to try out, too.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:39 pm

Judas Jetski wrote:Those chrome-over-brass rims help a lot with the tone. So do the reinforcing hoops on the inside of the drum. It's totally different than the roundbadge Gretsch stuff, if you ask me. Just a completely different animal... a snarling beast of a snare which doesn't care if it co?perates with the other instruments.... When I'm using this snare I always wind up making the rest of the set just kinda go along with the snare... The snare kind of runs the show, with those drums...

Case in point. My Max Roach Progressive Jazz model snare (roundbadge Gretsch) is the TOTAL opposite. I like it for its understated character. It always seems to fit into the mix in a totally unexciting way, especially if it's tuned kind of medium and has a little muffling on it.

The Slingerland drums tend to sound a little fatter than other drums of the same period, mostly because of the incredibly round bearing edgess. Gretsch cut some of the sharpest bearing edges on any drums of that period (and then they had the weird outside-to-inside cut on the toms), which is why so many jazz guys liked them-- the sharper edges gave them great sensitivity (another reason why I hold Noble & Cooley, Pork Pie, and Baltimore Drum in such high regard). I always like playing on old Slingerland drums in a contained room, but I hate playing them on gigs because I can never hear them--especially in full-on rock band situations.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:46 pm

Judas Jetski wrote:My favorite snare is basically the exact same snare as in the auction, only mine's gold sparkle. The one in the pic is (I think) a one-ply maple drum. If the drum in question's construction matches this one, it's a definite keeper. If nothing else, it'll only appreciate in value.
*

that one in the auction - and the one i have here - are 3 ply snare drums. (it says so right in the auction. )

Judas Jetski wrote:
Those chrome-over-brass rims help a lot with the tone. So do the reinforcing hoops on the inside of the drum. It's totally different than the roundbadge Gretsch stuff, if you ask me. Just a completely different animal... a snarling beast of a snare which doesn't care if it co?perates with the other instruments....

ok - now i am really confused. the gretsch drum we've been talking about IS roundbadge AND chrome over brass.

which one are you saying is a snarling beast?

are you saying that the SLINGERLAND is chrome over brass on the rims?

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:53 pm

joninc wrote:are you saying that the SLINGERLAND is chrome over brass on the rims?

The Gretsch and Slingerland rims from that period, although different in shape, were both made of brass and then chrome-plated.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

digitaldrummer · Post by **digitaldrummer** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:52 pm

I keep a few similar sounding snares around but with different head types (for example ambassador vs. fibreskyn) so I can grab one quickly and not have to change heads and kill a potential vibe...

you can never have too many snares. it's probably like women's shoes. but I wouldn't know.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:57 pm

what does a fibreskyn do for the tone? more ring/less ring? more muted/more lively?

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