I'm mixing my band's album at the moment. I've been mixing for a few years but am still trying to crawl up the learning curve.
I have a mix which I'm pretty happy with. However, comparing it to a commercial track - "Bullet in your Head (RATM)" - it seems to lack something. I'm a huge fan of Andy Wallace and love how his lows are so tight and the highs are present and glossy but not distracting.
My mix seems a bit 'crunky' in comparison, the highs sound messy and a bit splashy. The low is there but lacks a certain oomph.
I've tried bus compression before but my mixes sound hollow and queasy even with just a few dbs of reduction on the mix bus.
I wonder if anyone could pass on some tips for getting that finessed pro mix sound especially in the high frequencies (above 10K?)
A sample of my mix is here
http://www.driveway.com/i1t3r8t0b9
and I'd love to know what you guys feel is missing. We will be looking for a mastering engineer - would mastering make a huge difference to this track?
Cheers,
Tony
Mixing help??
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big electric cat
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timmymacdd
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MIDs........they tie it all together..
I used to be a smile type EQ guy and probably listened to too many hip hop tracks saying "turn up the treble-turn up the bass!"
So when I started mixing I used to do just that......or turning down the mids so that it was more engineering politically correct.
I have learned that I was wrong.
SO listening to your mix I hear waht you are saying I think......the song is kicking and sounds great......but it is lacking if I were to compare it to a "real" release.
Post a bunch of the audio and let us have a go at mixing it.......that would be fun. allow a week and we will all submit a cool mix.......ANd then you can ask the guys who gave it some extra uhmph and sparkle what it was that they did.
To me it all sounds like EQ'ing and compression that could be improved. but I am in no means an expert......but all of the parts are there and recorded great. great solo......I haven't heard one in a long time...
I guess I am not hearing enough seperation between parts.....it all is sounding like straight on EQ. TO put it into words.....is hard....but it seems like the toms and guitar are "muffled" somehow....in the beginning....I am trying to think how I would fix that.....sometimes I will double the tracks.....and make the second one really crispy high eq'd and then mix it until it sounds great.......like the second track is like a lowpassed version but I put it really low in the mix just enough to accent and bring out some sharpness in the tracks....and I automate the crap out of finished tracks .......bringing in and out the important parts......your vocals fit in and then the muffled guitar is perfect and the drums are perfect....and during the solo as well it is a perfect mix......but during the parts when the guitar is leading with the toms.....that kind of stuff need some special sparkle only for that moment and automate the extra out during other parts.
AS I listen again it seems like it could very well just be that you need to mess with the automation of parts that are actually in there. like that muffled might be that the bass is simply the leading factor......I personally would turn up the guitar but it is all really just personal opinion.....which is another reason to collaborate....Getting an outside engineer and mastering guy really will bring out important things that bandmates won't change or fix because they played the parts.
I used to be a smile type EQ guy and probably listened to too many hip hop tracks saying "turn up the treble-turn up the bass!"
So when I started mixing I used to do just that......or turning down the mids so that it was more engineering politically correct.
I have learned that I was wrong.
SO listening to your mix I hear waht you are saying I think......the song is kicking and sounds great......but it is lacking if I were to compare it to a "real" release.
Post a bunch of the audio and let us have a go at mixing it.......that would be fun. allow a week and we will all submit a cool mix.......ANd then you can ask the guys who gave it some extra uhmph and sparkle what it was that they did.
To me it all sounds like EQ'ing and compression that could be improved. but I am in no means an expert......but all of the parts are there and recorded great. great solo......I haven't heard one in a long time...
I guess I am not hearing enough seperation between parts.....it all is sounding like straight on EQ. TO put it into words.....is hard....but it seems like the toms and guitar are "muffled" somehow....in the beginning....I am trying to think how I would fix that.....sometimes I will double the tracks.....and make the second one really crispy high eq'd and then mix it until it sounds great.......like the second track is like a lowpassed version but I put it really low in the mix just enough to accent and bring out some sharpness in the tracks....and I automate the crap out of finished tracks .......bringing in and out the important parts......your vocals fit in and then the muffled guitar is perfect and the drums are perfect....and during the solo as well it is a perfect mix......but during the parts when the guitar is leading with the toms.....that kind of stuff need some special sparkle only for that moment and automate the extra out during other parts.
AS I listen again it seems like it could very well just be that you need to mess with the automation of parts that are actually in there. like that muffled might be that the bass is simply the leading factor......I personally would turn up the guitar but it is all really just personal opinion.....which is another reason to collaborate....Getting an outside engineer and mastering guy really will bring out important things that bandmates won't change or fix because they played the parts.
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timmymacdd
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another thing....since I am bored and waiting in line for thanksgiving showers......lol
You could play around with the sweet spot type of EQ thing. where you try to find the sweet spot of the bass and guitar and vocals and hype each one a little and take away from a few spots with contradicting EQ. I watched a tutorial on youtube with that and it was pretty cool once i started using that technique. sometimes the presets in audio pkugins hype up certain frequancies for you as well but learning to do it on your own is even ten times better since with mic placement and all it is impossible to really preset the actual spot where your particular intrument sounds best.
Here is a really boring video and there are 700 more but I like this guy...he is boring so I feel I am in school.......and he is using fruityloops which is gay.....but this type of technique are invaluable when mixing and trying to make things stand out.
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You could play around with the sweet spot type of EQ thing. where you try to find the sweet spot of the bass and guitar and vocals and hype each one a little and take away from a few spots with contradicting EQ. I watched a tutorial on youtube with that and it was pretty cool once i started using that technique. sometimes the presets in audio pkugins hype up certain frequancies for you as well but learning to do it on your own is even ten times better since with mic placement and all it is impossible to really preset the actual spot where your particular intrument sounds best.
Here is a really boring video and there are 700 more but I like this guy...he is boring so I feel I am in school.......and he is using fruityloops which is gay.....but this type of technique are invaluable when mixing and trying to make things stand out.
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timmymacdd
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Those RATM mixes are so good. The tight arrangements don't hurt either.
Every time I reference my mixes against Andy Wallace I want to cry. Aggressive and clear at the same time.
Here's my Andy Wallace formula.
Drum samples blended in to augment the existing drum sounds, also used for clean sends to the drum verb (short room kind of thing).
Ride the overs up for crashes then bring them down a bit when there's no cymbal stuff going on. Room mics are present but not super smashed like a lot of other mixers. EQ as needed (yeah good luck here) and use SSL type channel compression with the normal attack setting and faster release. DBX 160 will do something similar. I think this is key with AW as the drums have lots of attack and clarity.
Modulation widened bass guitar. I don't really like modulation effects on bass, but AW can do it and it doesn't sound too cheesy.
Using short delays to spread the guitars. Sounds like he uses 25 - 40 ms delays to give guitars more spread and space.
Destroy the vocal with 1176.
SSL compression on the mix bus. 10ms attack, auto release, 4:1 ratio.
Take off 2-5db.
There... now we're still no where near the sound of Andy Wallace's mixes!
Every time I reference my mixes against Andy Wallace I want to cry. Aggressive and clear at the same time.
Here's my Andy Wallace formula.
Drum samples blended in to augment the existing drum sounds, also used for clean sends to the drum verb (short room kind of thing).
Ride the overs up for crashes then bring them down a bit when there's no cymbal stuff going on. Room mics are present but not super smashed like a lot of other mixers. EQ as needed (yeah good luck here) and use SSL type channel compression with the normal attack setting and faster release. DBX 160 will do something similar. I think this is key with AW as the drums have lots of attack and clarity.
Modulation widened bass guitar. I don't really like modulation effects on bass, but AW can do it and it doesn't sound too cheesy.
Using short delays to spread the guitars. Sounds like he uses 25 - 40 ms delays to give guitars more spread and space.
Destroy the vocal with 1176.
SSL compression on the mix bus. 10ms attack, auto release, 4:1 ratio.
Take off 2-5db.
There... now we're still no where near the sound of Andy Wallace's mixes!
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farview
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I gave some detailed help on Home Recording, I'll repeat it here.
Turn off the guitar and vocals and get the drums and bass to really kick together. You need more compression on the kick to get it to be more consistent. The attack is only there when he really hits it, which isn't that often.
Once the bass and drums are strong enough to carry the groove of the song, then bring in the rhythm guitars (not the jangly part that starts the song, the bed rhythms). EQ them so that they don't fight with the bass guitar. The lows should come from the bass. Now sink the guitars into the bass and drum track. The main thing that I noticed on your mix is that the guitars are too loud, which made you mix the vocals too loud on top of them.
Now add the jangly guitar that happens in the intro, do the same low end EQ that you did on the other guitars, but you might have to do something different with it in the midrange to distinguish it from the other guitars without having to have it louder.
Set up a few group busses. One for the overheads, another for the drums, another for the guitars, bass, leads, vocal, etc...
Send the appropriate channels to these busses
On the overhead buss, insert an EQ and compressor. (in that order) EQ out the muddy low end (assuming that you close mic'd the toms, if not send these channels to the drum buss) and compress until you get a nice decay on the cymbals.
On the drum buss, add a compressor. Set the compressor so that it pumps in time with the music and gives the kick a good solid thump while giving the snare a good crack.
Bass buss: Compression, just to get it under control and solid.
Re-adjust the mix and add the vocals. (it's easier if you create the group channels first, them start creating the mix)
You might need to go to the guitar buss and EQ out a little 2k to give the vocals some place to sit in the mix.
Compress the vocal buss to give you an even performance.
The idea is to get a solid foundation and then start piecing the mix together like a jigsaw puzzle with every instrument having it's own sonic space to sit in. That way, nothing has to be much louder than anything else to be heard.
Turn off the guitar and vocals and get the drums and bass to really kick together. You need more compression on the kick to get it to be more consistent. The attack is only there when he really hits it, which isn't that often.
Once the bass and drums are strong enough to carry the groove of the song, then bring in the rhythm guitars (not the jangly part that starts the song, the bed rhythms). EQ them so that they don't fight with the bass guitar. The lows should come from the bass. Now sink the guitars into the bass and drum track. The main thing that I noticed on your mix is that the guitars are too loud, which made you mix the vocals too loud on top of them.
Now add the jangly guitar that happens in the intro, do the same low end EQ that you did on the other guitars, but you might have to do something different with it in the midrange to distinguish it from the other guitars without having to have it louder.
Set up a few group busses. One for the overheads, another for the drums, another for the guitars, bass, leads, vocal, etc...
Send the appropriate channels to these busses
On the overhead buss, insert an EQ and compressor. (in that order) EQ out the muddy low end (assuming that you close mic'd the toms, if not send these channels to the drum buss) and compress until you get a nice decay on the cymbals.
On the drum buss, add a compressor. Set the compressor so that it pumps in time with the music and gives the kick a good solid thump while giving the snare a good crack.
Bass buss: Compression, just to get it under control and solid.
Re-adjust the mix and add the vocals. (it's easier if you create the group channels first, them start creating the mix)
You might need to go to the guitar buss and EQ out a little 2k to give the vocals some place to sit in the mix.
Compress the vocal buss to give you an even performance.
The idea is to get a solid foundation and then start piecing the mix together like a jigsaw puzzle with every instrument having it's own sonic space to sit in. That way, nothing has to be much louder than anything else to be heard.
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lunatic
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One problem is the performance. Yes... the solo is cool - way cool. Hell, it's even a cool song! It makes me want to hear more from the band (seriously let me know when the CD is available. I'll buy one). The band doesn't seem too tight and that can make a HUGE difference. If people aren't playing tight and in good time the tune overeall will feel... cluttered.
Also, this song sounds nothing like RATM so while referencing RATM is fine.... it is possibly an exercise in frustration. Pick a tune/band that is closer to this band and reference against that.
Tell us how it was tracked and what your current settings are for the instruments. Let's start there. Tell us what YOU are doing and perhaps we can direct you better or give you some clues.
One thing I notice is that the snare has a very thin kind of sound to it. Sure it pops but there is something lacking almost like there is a phase problem between your overheads and snare mic. Are all three in phase?
So, spill the beans about what your settings are currently at and what gear you have at your disposal and let's see if we can help you out! Hell, perhaps we'll all learn something
I do like the idea of people taking a stab at some test mixes of this too. That'd be cool.
Also, this song sounds nothing like RATM so while referencing RATM is fine.... it is possibly an exercise in frustration. Pick a tune/band that is closer to this band and reference against that.
Tell us how it was tracked and what your current settings are for the instruments. Let's start there. Tell us what YOU are doing and perhaps we can direct you better or give you some clues.
One thing I notice is that the snare has a very thin kind of sound to it. Sure it pops but there is something lacking almost like there is a phase problem between your overheads and snare mic. Are all three in phase?
So, spill the beans about what your settings are currently at and what gear you have at your disposal and let's see if we can help you out! Hell, perhaps we'll all learn something
I do like the idea of people taking a stab at some test mixes of this too. That'd be cool.
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big electric cat
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I made a blog of recording the basic tracks at: http://g-jay.vox.com/lunatic wrote:
Tell us how it was tracked and what your current settings are for the instruments. Let's start there. Tell us what YOU are doing and perhaps we can direct you better or give you some clues.
It's not finished but there are lots of photos of tracking and micing.
I'll post some of my settings when I get home. I was hi passing the guitars at about 150 and I felt guilty!
I guess this could be interesting if a few people were interestedlunatic wrote:I do like the idea of people taking a stab at some test mixes of this too. That'd be cool.
Thanks a lot for the input guys. Please feel free to add any other coments...
Cheers,
Tony
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MoreSpaceEcho
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i tried to check out your tune but the link didn't work for me...
not to go too off topic, but:
not to go too off topic, but:
do you (or anyone) know what they used for overheads on the first record? i was listening to a little of that the other day and the overheads sound sooooo smooth. i want whatever mics they used although i'm certain i could never afford them. still curious though.Slider wrote:Those RATM mixes are so good.
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signorMars
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i think you'll find a LOT of people game to try their hand at mixing the song. i know i would!
listening to the song, it sounds like it was pretty well tracked, but still needs some more work. i think the main issues (in my ears) are EQ and a bit of balance. the vocals seem a little too up front and a bit too dry... you might try automating some reverb on the choruses so that that vocal pops out a bit more, maybe a touch more compression so it will sit in the mix a little better at a lower overall level. the kick drum sounds a bit too bassy to me... really the drums in general could use a little less low end. it's a bit counterintuitive at first glance, but sometimes the key to tight low end is LESS low end. lose some of the really low lows that trigger your comps and you usually get a little more balanced tone overall... maybe a high pass around 30Hz... or, if you have a boost around 60Hz or so, boost less. also, boost the lowest lows on the kick and then maybe boost the bass guitar an octave up (if it needs it). i agree with the above statements that the mids are probably the key here. getting your head around midrange is difficult.
listening to the song, it sounds like it was pretty well tracked, but still needs some more work. i think the main issues (in my ears) are EQ and a bit of balance. the vocals seem a little too up front and a bit too dry... you might try automating some reverb on the choruses so that that vocal pops out a bit more, maybe a touch more compression so it will sit in the mix a little better at a lower overall level. the kick drum sounds a bit too bassy to me... really the drums in general could use a little less low end. it's a bit counterintuitive at first glance, but sometimes the key to tight low end is LESS low end. lose some of the really low lows that trigger your comps and you usually get a little more balanced tone overall... maybe a high pass around 30Hz... or, if you have a boost around 60Hz or so, boost less. also, boost the lowest lows on the kick and then maybe boost the bass guitar an octave up (if it needs it). i agree with the above statements that the mids are probably the key here. getting your head around midrange is difficult.
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ross ingram
[brainville]
ross ingram
[brainville]
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big electric cat
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Well a few people have expressed an interest in having a go at mixing the tune. So I've uploaded the files. You can download them - beware large file sizes - heresignorMars wrote:i think you'll find a LOT of people game to try their hand at mixing the song. i know i would!
http://www.driveway.com/w=z9h9q4e6z4
If that fails, there are 3 zip files which you should be able to get here:
http://www.driveway.com/w=z9h9q4e6z4
http://www.driveway.com/w=z9h9q4e6z4
http://www.driveway.com/q6j7p1h0h9
The band would like it to sound big and fairly natural, we're not big on weird sounding samples. I referenced the first Rage against the Machine record as it represents what I'm striving for power, energy and clarity.
We have no budget for this, I won't be able to offer any payment, even if Andy Wallace himself comes along and does a mix.
Although I am keen to produce a great sounding record for my band, I am also desperate to learn the craft of mixing. So I'd really appreciate it if you do a great mix if you would be willing to let me know what you did and how you did it.
Cheers,
Tony
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big electric cat
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It appears Diveway.com are crap.
I'm uploading the files here (in smaller batches for faster download):
http://www.mediafire.com/?tgrozzmj0qm
http://www.mediafire.com/?5nz1yd1zyzt
http://www.mediafire.com/?tey5n5amhmt
http://www.mediafire.com/?tojtmmzmnoo
http://www.mediafire.com/?to5itwjmhyq
I can only hope mediafire is more reliable.
Tony
I'm uploading the files here (in smaller batches for faster download):
http://www.mediafire.com/?tgrozzmj0qm
http://www.mediafire.com/?5nz1yd1zyzt
http://www.mediafire.com/?tey5n5amhmt
http://www.mediafire.com/?tojtmmzmnoo
http://www.mediafire.com/?to5itwjmhyq
I can only hope mediafire is more reliable.
Tony
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MoreSpaceEcho
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