Mix in protools sounds different than bounced stereo track.

[suppositron]

So usually when I mix a track down I will burn it to a cd and listen to it in my car or some boombox. Instead, I tried listening to it on my headphones coming out of the protools interface, then bounced it down and pluged the same headphones into my mac's headphone out and listened to the track in Itunes and heard some big changes in clarity. Most notably the kick and snare. Now, I realise the d/a converters on the soundcard of my mac shouldn't be as good as the ones in the mbox, but should I be hearing that big of a difference? Is it the quality of the converters I'm hearing or something happening in the bounce? Have you heard an audible difference in the mix playback and bounced stereo track with more neutral monitoring than I am using?

[suppositron]

And, by the way, I'm not talking about listening to a converted mp3. I'm listening to the wave file in Itunes.

[the finger genius]

It could definitely be happening as part of the bounce. This is why there are so many summing boxes available now.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I've noticed the same thing in the past but I think the likely problem has more to do with iTunes than Pro Tools.
Last time I noticed this I tried loading wav files into Audacity and listened from there. The mixes sounded the same in Audacity as they did in Pro Tools when played back through my Digi002 or the Mac's internal headphone out. In itunes the mixes sounded different through the Digi and the internal phones.

Obviously this isn't a scientific test but I'd put my money on itunes being the problem. It might be as simple as making sure the soundcheck feature it turned off.

[the finger genius]

That's also certainly a possibility. I would try listening through a CD player and the same monitors you were listening to before to see if it still sounds different.

[suppositron]

What is soundcheck? Is that the option that normalizes the songs as you listen to them? I didn't check that, but I know I don't have any eq on itunes either.

I will try more monitoring combinations- I just wanted to make sure where the sound was changing, cause I know I always like playback on my monitors or headphones better than the bounced file. But I also realise once I have the bounced mix I'm usually listening on consumer systems so obviously things aren't gonna sound clearer. I just wanted to make sure nothing else was going on inbetween.

What is that summing box you speak of? You feed each track in and it does the summing and dithering by itself?

Oh, you know what else? Do you think it has something to do with going from 24 bit to 16 bit?

[the finger genius]

24 bit vs. 16 bit - Definitely will make a difference, and probably a bigger difference than using an outboard summing box.

Summing Boxes take analog inputs, and sum them to a stereo analog out, so there is no need for dithering.

To be perfectly honest, not having used one, I'm not completely sold on the idea, but I know there are people on this board who will swear that this sounds much better than ITB summing.

Summing Box

[darjama]

You're using different converters and different bit rates. These two could explain some of the difference. Is there a volume difference as well?

How are you getting from 24 to 16 bits? What kind of dither are you using? I'm not a protools user, but do you have options on your dither settings?

[Spindrift]

I've also found that iTunes doesn't sound as good as other software. Add to that the various playback settings that can make things worse. The biggest culprit is Sound Enhancer, which puts the two channels somewhat out of phase to create a more obvious stereo effect.

The mac's converters are also worse than what's found in Digi hardware.

Another issue might be that certain versions of PT (LE and mix systems) use a different summing algorithms for playback and for bounces. It's not uncommon for people to notice a difference in sound quality between what they hear on playback and what they hear after importing a bounce into PT. One way around this is to set your outputs to a bus instead of the main outs and then record that bus onto a stereo track.

adam

[chris j]

Try using your busses when you do a bounce, it sounds alot better.

[Trick Fall]

The buss idea is interesting. For what it's worth I routinely bounce from Pro Tools and dump a copy into iTunes and I have not noticed much if any difference. I use the same converters for iTunes that I use for Pro Tools though. All my computer audio goes through my M-Audio 1814. Of course the 1814 probably isn't all that great either.

[suppositron]

One way around this is to set your outputs to a bus instead of the main outs and then record that bus onto a stereo track.

I don't really see what the difference is bouncing from the stereo outs or recording off a bus other than bypassing the file conversion at the end of the bounce. I have the conversion set for the level below "tweakhead". Can you guys hear a difference between them, cause my ears aren't that good so I doubt that's what I'm hearing. So what would be the best way to convert down to 16bits then? Cause if I just recorded the main outs on a bus I would be left with a stereo 24bit file.

I will definately give it a try though.

[suppositron]

Try using your busses when you do a bounce, it sounds alot better.

Are you talking about the same thing as Spindrift? You're not just saying to group instruments with the busses before bouncing are you? If so, I already use busses on drums, parallel compression, and guitars.

[Nick Sevilla]

So usually when I mix a track down I will burn it to a cd and listen to it in my car or some boombox. Instead, I tried listening to it on my headphones coming out of the protools interface, then bounced it down and pluged the same headphones into my mac's headphone out and listened to the track in Itunes and heard some big changes in clarity. Most notably the kick and snare. Now, I realise the d/a converters on the soundcard of my mac shouldn't be as good as the ones in the mbox, but should I be hearing that big of a difference? Is it the quality of the converters I'm hearing or something happening in the bounce? Have you heard an audible difference in the mix playback and bounced stereo track with more neutral monitoring than I am using?

Digidesign has recommended for over three years, the following method for mixing down :

Create a New (Stereo or Surround, as the case may be) Audio Track, with an unused pair of busses as the input.

Buss ALL AUDIO to this Buss.

Have the output of this new track be the playback (1+2 output)

Record the mix onto this track. Then export it, if needed, to a Stereo format, or whatever format you need.

Digidesign long ago recognized that there are two issues with using the Bounce command :

1.- if you are using a lot of processing, sometimes the bounce will stop due to processing errors.

2.- the Stereo image is different enough, to warrant mixing down in this new method.

Additionally, you can use a Master Fader linked to the Output buss, and use processing there, if needed. This cannot be done in a Bounce command.

Cheers
Cheers.

[suppositron]

Thanks a lot. I've never heard that before.