Glyn Johns for a rehearsal-room recording: phase question

[Mikey P]

Ok: I think I've read all the Glyn Johns threads on TOMB now. Apologies if this question has been dealt with elsewhere though.

I've started trying to get better quality recordings of rehearsals: my band is entirely improvised, so it's kind of a waste not to. I'm using an NRV10 8-channel audio interface, and I have access to a handful of SM57s, 58s, and a Shure drum-mic set (a pair of PG81 overheads, a PG52 kick mic and 3 PG56 mics which i guess are interchangeable between snares and toms).

The other instruments are electric bass through an old Woogie and a Wurlitzer electric piano through an old Fender Twin. The rehearsal room has pretty reflective walls, and isn't big but the ceilings are high.

When I tried last time I used the PG81s as X-Y overheads on the drums, stuck the PG52 in the kick, a PG56 under the snare, and DI'd the bass and Wurlitzer. The results were ok for a rehearsal room recording but nothing amazing; if you're interested there's an mp3 at the top of this page:
http://rmitsoundart.ning.com/profile/Baettlesnaeke

It's called 'after the flood - second pass'.

Anyway, I've been intrigued by all the Glyn Johns posts. Because we'll all be playing at once I'll have only 4 or so channels for the drums, so the 'good sound, minimal mics' aspect appeals.

My question is about the phase of the other instruments. I used an X-Y overhead setup last time because I figured any spill from the bass and Wurly amps would stay in phase. If I separate the overheads won't I automatically create phase problems with the spill from the other instruments? Surely even if i drag the DI bass so it's well aligned with the bass spill in the left overhead, it'll be out of phase with the right, and vice versa?

Or am I missing something?

[mjau]

I've been playing in an improv-thing in my small space, and tried a Glyn Johns method once for rehearsal. It sounded pretty good, but the bleed in the drum mic's pretty much dictated where I panned guitar and bass. Since the bass amp was closer to the "side" overhead, there was a definite pull to the bass toward that side (and vice versa for the guitar amp). Not necessarily a bad thing, but I like a little more control in the mix so I try to minimize mic bleed a bit more and use something like x/y or ORTF on drum overheads now.

[Jon Nolan]

I've been playing in an improv-thing in my small space, and tried a Glyn Johns method once for rehearsal. It sounded pretty good, but the bleed in the drum mic's pretty much dictated where I panned guitar and bass. Since the bass amp was closer to the "side" overhead, there was a definite pull to the bass toward that side (and vice versa for the guitar amp). Not necessarily a bad thing, but I like a little more control in the mix so I try to minimize mic bleed a bit more and use something like x/y or ORTF on drum overheads now.

i've done some tracking where i made sure to place the amps in the room where i would pan them. like, bass amp in front of the kick (like ten feet, low volume), gobo'd guitars on either side.

just another setup option, fwiw....

[JWL]

My inclination in such situations is to spend a fair amount of time playing with room mics. For instance, set everyone up in a circle, with the bassist across from the drums, and the 2 guitars across from each other, and put a blumlein pair in the center of the room. Get a good balance this way, and supplement with DI and/or close mics.

Also, gobos are your friend. Using gobos is quite compatible with the above.

In addition, you can play with the null patterns of overhead mics in the overheads to get more isolation. I find figure8 mics are best for this.....

[akg414]

Gobos - like they said. Also, if you "can" - get a Sennheiser 441. They are unbelievable in rejecting almost EVERYTHING but what it's pointed at.

I recently had a jam that used a Glyn Johns overhead and kick mic. The bass was direct (through the amp) and there were two Telecasters through Deluxe Reverbs. I used one (441) against my 65 deluxe reverb and an SM57 against the other deluxe reverb.

I placed the mics LITERALLY 1/4 inch from the grills on both amps. The 57 rejected the bleed SO good. And the 441 rejected the bleed almost totally - and I mean almost 100% - totally. I was blown away by both mics.

I'll make some clips and post.

[roscoenyc]

all of the above suggestions are good ones.

(placement of the other amps where you'd like them to end up in the final panning of the OH's....go/bo-s and all)

What I would add is whatever your general OH measurement is (from snare to top, side and front) I would try tripling that measurement and place the amps at that distance from the snare.

[Mikey P]

Hey, thanks everyone for all the suggestions!

In the short term I'll just be working with mic and amp placement, though gobos are a good idea too. It'd be sweet to buy mics especially for the job but I won't be able to do that while I'm still studying, especially not at AU$650 a pop. I can borrow mics from uni but they're all either Rodes or 57s, though there is a (single, non-borrowable) 541 in the mic cabinet in the recording studio at uni.

I guess, since we rehearse once a week I can just try different things each week til I find what works best in the room. This week I'll try a Glyn Johns setup on the drums, drag the bass amp so it's central relative to the OHs, wurly amp.. somewhere else, OHs the same distance from the snare and amps as close as I can get them to 3x that distance. And then see how the result compares to my last effort.

If I use 4 mics for the drums and DI the bass and wurly that leaves 2 channels free. I avoided miking the amps last time because they're both old and noisy, and I avoided a dedicated room mic because I figured
a) there'd be enough spill to the overheads to not need one and
b) there'd be enough spill to the overheads that I'd get phase problems from a room mic. But I guess I can try one anyway and just leave it out of the mix if ti doesn't help anything.

[daniel ramirez]

If you are recording the Wurli and Bass DI, why not just take the amps out of the mix and monitor through headphones?