Amp loudness at practive versus small club

[neotoma]

I have been singing for a loud rock bands for about 8 years.

Something that has been irritating me during this time is dealing with loudness during practice versus live performances at clubs. Ever since I've been in bands the guitarist always overpowers me; at practice, in a live setting. I'm getting to the point where I've been very picky about the mix when we play live. As a singer, a common criticism is, "sounded good, but we could not hear you at all."

Now I know that it's common for guitarists to play very LOUD to achieve feeling and tone. I've spoken to many before about turning down for live shows and playing louder for practice - most think its just a nuisance because they have to readjust their EQ and volume as they lose their tone, and their pedals are now all out of whack.

Is there a way to have a nominal level that could be used for both medium practice spaces (ours is about 1000 sq ft.) and small clubs without losing so much feeling out of the amp? What is the best device or pedal that would give me volume presets that might just lower the volume by 3dB increments and not compromise tone quality?

Our current guitarist only wants to play at one volume simply because he think's its a nuisance to turn down - he's not an egomaniac or anything - just doesn't appreciate how it affects his eq and pedal volumes.

He recently bought at OR50 and 412 cabinet so I imagine he has some room to spare, considering he was replacing a twin reverb.

Any suggestions are much appreciated!!

- Brandon

www.myspace.com/dtvis
(there is recent video on here that shows how loud our guitarist is...pretty much the loudest thing in the mix.)

[Corey Y]

There's no reason they can't just keep their amp on the same settings and use an attenuator like a THD Hotplate, etc. to achieve the desired volume. If they're using a tube amp and volume is the key to their tone they should really have one already, but that's being optimistic I suppose.

[JWL]

As both a guitarist and a sound guy, I appreciate both points of view. Or as I've said to many a guitarist, "I understand about tone. But your quest for good tone is making the mix sound horrible, and there's nothing I can do to fix it until you turn down."

What I would suggest is be careful with how amps are arranged. Do the best you can to have the 4x12 stack pointing right at the guitarist's face, full fury. This way he will definitely be able to hear himself, he might even turn it down himself, and it will give the sound engineer a fighting chance to get a good mix.

Iso cabinets might also be an option, along iwth the others mentioned above.

[jv]

Yes, search the archives for THD Hotplate or Weber mini mass and you'll find attenuators have been discussed a lot here. Often, the better solution is to use a smaller, lower wattage amp. But guitar players don't like to hear that.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Look at a lower wattage amp or a power soak.
A lower wattage amp will break up at lower volumes. A power soak will let you turn down the output to the speaker without affecting the amp settings (ie - crank the amp up for tone/drive etc and turn the speakers down)
Some of the issue might just be that you guitar player enjoys the physicality of loud volumes. A guitar and amp interact in certain ways at medium to loud volumes. It has less to do with amp drive. It's more about how the SPL from a loud amp makes the guitar resonate. It can change the tone and sustain.

[getreel]

With a good tube amp and good pedals, the tone should sound fine even when turned down some. It should not affect the tone THAT much to make someone so unhappy. I've run in to this in one of my old bands and I'm a guitarist myself. I used to wear ear plugs at practice cause the other player was so freakin' loud! Then I'd crank my 100 watt 2X12 amp up to like 7( very loud) so I could hear myself with the earplugs in. Sometimes it's not so much the tone but more the ego it seems to me. This is my opinion as a lead guitarist that does appreciate good tone but does not see the need for volume levels to be so high to achieve it. Sure, there us some truth to it changing the setup but if a setup needs to be changed once in awhile to make the other musicians' lives better, then why be like that about it? It's just ridiculous sometimes to have guitarists who are all "I need to be that loud for tone" in my best mocking I'm so cool with my awesome guitar rig and tone whiny voice.

[ckeene]

Is it possible the guitarist is fighting the drummer, particularly in regard to cutting through over the sound of cymbals?

[RefD]

Yes, search the archives for THD Hotplate or Weber mini mass and you'll find attenuators have been discussed a lot here. Often, the better solution is to use a smaller, lower wattage amp. But guitar players don't like to hear that.

that works well when recording, but not so well live.

alot of venues have CRAP for foldback...if it even exists!

[getreel]

Sorry about my little rant above, but I think guitarists make a lot of excuses for why they are so damn loud. The other suggestions are very good however. Using a smaller amp is a great idea as is the Hotplate. Too bad more guitarists don't go smaller amps. The big amps and stacks are ego things too many times IMO. Take it for a what it's worth. Sorry I was grumpy there but it hits close to home after be co-guitarist in a band where the other guitarist used 2 amps(both on all the time; not A/B'ed) even at rehearsals. I didn't have the funds to keep up and therefore not the volume either. Strikes clse to home for me and I feel the excessive volume is many times unnecessary. I must be getting old

[roygbiv]

along with the above suggestions, you might want to try:

1) Setting the amps in a cross-fire position on stage (i.e., set the amps on the side of the stage, pointing across the stage). Several benefits: can help the guy running the PA, as the volume coming off the stage is less. Also, gets the band guys on both sides yelling at each other to turn down, taking the pressure of you , the singer in front (assuming you are using the band missionary position).

2) Amp stands or amps with tilt-back legs (like the Fender ProReverb). As someone mentioned above, having the speaker blaring at the guitarists head can go a long way towards making him feel he is Pete Townshend at Woodstock.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

2) Amp stands or amps with tilt-back legs (like the Fender ProReverb). As someone mentioned above, having the speaker blaring at the guitarists head can go a long way towards making him feel he is Pete Townshend at Woodstock.

This should go without saying but so rarely does. You don't hear with your feet so don't point the amp there.

[RefD]

i agree that there's no excuse for excessive volume at a practice.

but, as i stated above, in many venues a low wattage guitar amp is unusable cos of the awful monitoring situation.

that said, it sounds like the OP is up against a situation where the guitarist is just plain too damned loud for no good reason.

[ashcat_lt]

It doesn't actually take all that much volume to get the sustain and controlled feedback from an amp. As somebody mentioned above, once you get the guitarist to turn down, you've still got the fucking drummer to worry about. He doesn't have a volume control, and has to rely on restraint, which is a word most drummers don't seem to understand.

The right answer is amp simulators and drum triggers, but you'll never sell that.

[capnreverb]

I think a whole thread could be started about guitarists that have to be too darn loud. I have played with a lot of musicians in my life and IT IS ALWAYS THE GUITARIST WHO IS UNABLE OR UNWILLING OR SELFISH TO TURN THE FU*K DOWN. "Tone" is just an excuse. In buying an amp for my studio for guitarists, I purposely bought a nice amp that was not a fudging stack or nine zillion amps so they would be unable to pull the guitarist cock mesuring stick out. My rule of thumb is that if you can not hear the nuance of the drums in practice and he has to hit harder than your volume to hear himself, then you are to loud.

I would tell the guy to turn the fuck down or don't play with him. I'm sure he is not the only guitarist in your town.

I have known guitarists that have the magical ability to make even a 10 watt practice amp louder than it really should be. The could be playing next to a 100 watt bass amp and still somehow be louder.

If you have to wear earplugs for rehearsal, turn down. If your 14, then i can see playing at mega volume to impress somebody, but as an adult?

I will end my stupid rant and get off my soapbox.

[JGriffin]

A low wattage amp could be pointed directly at the guitarist. One band I was in, we would set the guitar combo amps at the lip of the stage, right next to the vocal wedges, leaned back in the same manner, so that each guitarist could hear as much of himself as he wanted without bugging anyone else. Worked great.