Snare bottom micing

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drumsound
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Post by drumsound » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:25 pm

bigtexasthriller wrote:Mixing today, I inverted the polarity on the snare channels as suggested.....sounded much better when the polarity was reversed on the bottom mic.....Just that made it so much better....

The way I understand phase is that when you use 2 or more mics, you need to have the sound waves reach those mics congruently....meaning that the top part of the wave needs to reach both mics simultaneously....if they hit at different parts then there will be a cancellation of certain frequencies....I assumed the 3 to 1 rule was based on how sound travels, and the waves would line up again at a 3 to 1 distance....that was just a guess based on knowing that sound decreases in volume at an exact ratio with distance. I used to set up mics purposely out of phase to hear the difference on acoustic guitars, so I do have some idea of how in phase and out of phase sounds.... The room mics were a far enough distance that I knew some frequencies wouldn't be as present anyway, and the kick and tom mics were close enought that the bleed of the rest of the kit wouldn't matter so much with phase cacellation....

How much of that is correct? Many of us have learned physics 2nd hand.....

But now, yeah, I definately have a new awareness of having to pay attention to phasing on the kit as a whole.....Thanks.....
That's really a misinformed view. Different frequencies travel at different speeds. The room itself, can induce phase anomalies. Each mic on a source will deal with what sounds hit it when. So EVERY mic in a multiple mic set up should be checked in relationship to the other for phase inconsistencies. Just because the room mics were far away so you thought "some frequencies wouldn't be as present anyway" doesn't mean that they have a good phase relationship to the close mics. And just because there are mics close to toms and snare doesn't mean that other elements of the drum-set do not enter into them, hence they also can have phase problems.

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Post by drumsound » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:27 pm

ott0bot wrote:
bigtexasthriller wrote:For the question above about bleed....Does your mic pre have a low end roll off? That should help right away....plus you can roll it off more with your eq in the mix.....but bleed CAN be great.....
Indeed it does have a roll off, which I have used. And you're right that helps for sure. bleed is ok to a cetain extent...but the drummer wants to acheive this classic Motown drum hit with a big reverb. And I'm just not sure that will work on the full kit take because there is too much bleed and his other playing is too busy to give that same feeling. I really want to isolate the drum hit so it sounds really open...but really full. I may try an additional room mic in tiled or concrete room and get some more natural reverb too. Experimentation is the key, right?
You can put a tight gate on the reverb SEND. Make it short because the reverb will provide the length. If needed you can EQ the send as well.

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:18 pm

losthighway wrote:
ott0bot wrote:...but the drummer wants to acheive this classic Motown drum hit with a big reverb. And I'm just not sure that will work on the full kit take because there is too much bleed and his other playing is too busy to give that same feeling.
Classic. The drummer wants to sound motown and the only honest response to him is "Well, start by playing that way." Maybe if they called you 'producer' you could offer that help, I don't know.
I know......it's funny i actually say that to him as well. :lol:
The guy is quite good actually...and he has recorded in a bunch of really nice studios with seasoned pro's for engineers. Thus he has high expectations of how he wants it to sound. I can usually find a way to please him...and the rest of the band is usually very pleased. But he can be a bit tricky.

Heck I'm doing a free ep for these guys, engineering and producing, out of my meager home studio so I don't always listen to him. If he starts paying me for my time he can start telling me how he wants to record it! I think it sounds good....everyone else in the band is happy. You can't please everyone....but I still try.

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:22 pm

drumsound wrote:
ott0bot wrote:
bigtexasthriller wrote:For the question above about bleed....Does your mic pre have a low end roll off? That should help right away....plus you can roll it off more with your eq in the mix.....but bleed CAN be great.....
Indeed it does have a roll off, which I have used. And you're right that helps for sure. bleed is ok to a cetain extent...but the drummer wants to acheive this classic Motown drum hit with a big reverb. And I'm just not sure that will work on the full kit take because there is too much bleed and his other playing is too busy to give that same feeling. I really want to isolate the drum hit so it sounds really open...but really full. I may try an additional room mic in tiled or concrete room and get some more natural reverb too. Experimentation is the key, right?
You can put a tight gate on the reverb SEND. Make it short because the reverb will provide the length. If needed you can EQ the send as well.
You are talking in post right? I'm not recrding anything except natural reveb into pro tools, and I don't have a rack unit with a gate now....so I'm going to have to do it in post. he's coming back into my studio in the next few weeks and I'm going take a whole day to experiment with some techniques. Thanks for the input!

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Post by losthighway » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:37 pm

ott0bot wrote: The guy is quite good actually...and he has recorded in a bunch of really nice studios with seasoned pro's for engineers. Thus he has high expectations of how he wants it to sound. I can usually find a way to please him...and the rest of the band is usually very pleased. But he can be a bit tricky.

Heck I'm doing a free ep for these guys, engineering and producing, out of my meager home studio so I don't always listen to him. If he starts paying me for my time he can start telling me how he wants to record it! I think it sounds good....everyone else in the band is happy. You can't please everyone....but I still try.
You are a kinder man than I.

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Post by cgarges » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:45 pm

fossiltooth wrote:Wow. Great posts on this thread, Garges.
Thanks, Justin.

Okay, here's today's session:

Kick drum- positive
Snare drum- positive (sort of)
Tom1 top- reversed
Tom1 bottom- positive
Tom2 top- reversed
Tom2 bottom- positive
Mono overhead- reversed
MS room setup- positive

I say "sort of" with the snare mic because I initially had to reverse it, but I wound up putting an 1176 on it, which reversed the polarity, so I had to switch it again to get it phase coherent with the kit. It pays to pay attention.

I'm cutting drums again on Monday, same drummer, different kit, different studio, different band. I'll try to remember to post Monday's results.

By the way, I've never used a real U67 as a drum overhead until today. Wow!

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Post by bigtexasthriller » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:36 pm

I cut drums today too and this posting was a big help....

I was ready to post my results and you beat me to it....

Kick - positive
Snare top - positive
Snare bottom - inverted
tom - inverted (and that was the most obvious difference when I flipped back and forth....)
OH - inverted
Room - positive

Probably the most natural overall drum sound I have gotten so far....and I felt much more in control of what I was getting to tape.....Helps to have a great drummer as well....everyone was very happy with everything today, and only us on the TOMB knew I was experimenting with something new...To me, everything ended up sounding much more in place (even the cymbals), and I think it should be easier to mix now.....Thanks again to Chris and everyone else for sharing knowledge......
Do the best you can with what you have.....

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Post by drumsound » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:01 pm

ott0bot wrote:
drumsound wrote:
ott0bot wrote:
bigtexasthriller wrote:For the question above about bleed....Does your mic pre have a low end roll off? That should help right away....plus you can roll it off more with your eq in the mix.....but bleed CAN be great.....
Indeed it does have a roll off, which I have used. And you're right that helps for sure. bleed is ok to a cetain extent...but the drummer wants to acheive this classic Motown drum hit with a big reverb. And I'm just not sure that will work on the full kit take because there is too much bleed and his other playing is too busy to give that same feeling. I really want to isolate the drum hit so it sounds really open...but really full. I may try an additional room mic in tiled or concrete room and get some more natural reverb too. Experimentation is the key, right?
You can put a tight gate on the reverb SEND. Make it short because the reverb will provide the length. If needed you can EQ the send as well.
You are talking in post right? I'm not recrding anything except natural reveb into pro tools, and I don't have a rack unit with a gate now....so I'm going to have to do it in post. he's coming back into my studio in the next few weeks and I'm going take a whole day to experiment with some techniques. Thanks for the input!
Yes I was thinking during the mix. I've done this with the crappy gate on Berhinger compressor with great 'success.'

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Post by cgarges » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:39 am

As promised, here are today's results:

Everything in phase except the top tom mics. Doesn't happen often, but it did today.

Kick- In
Snare- In
Tom1 Top- Flipped
Tom1 Bottom- In
Tom2 Top- Flipped
Tom2 Bottom- In
Mono OH- In
Mono Room- In

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Post by wedge » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:42 am

cgarges wrote:Phase is everything when you're recording a drumkit.
That's why I like to use as few mics as possible; sometimes even one...

That's right! MONO!!!

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monomaniacalmonomonomonomonomonomonomonomonomonomonom

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Post by Peterson Goodwyn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:54 pm

C. Garges-- thanks for the "big dumb mic" on the snare bottom tip. I gently suggested we try a 421 for that purpose on a session I was assisting on this weekend and it worked perfectly for the thick, thumpy sound the band was going for.

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Post by cgarges » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:09 pm

Cool. I actually used a 421 underneath a "reamped" snare drum last Wednesday. It's a great mic for down there! Glad it worked out for you.

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Post by CompEq » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:01 pm

Different frequencies travel at different speeds.
Tony,

Nope, nope, nope, no they don't. The speed of sound can be altered by temperature and medium, but it is not frequency dependent.

A 20 Hz wave travels at the same speed as a 20 kHz wave if they are at the same temperature and both travelling through (for example) air.

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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:42 pm

what if they are travelling through a room filled with sand?

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Post by CompEq » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:58 pm

what if they are travelling through a room filled with sand?
That would be the medium. Same speed, but you'd have a grainy sound for sure. :shock:

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