Help with Live/Practice Sound in studio (w/diagram)

[minorkeylee]

I wasn't sure where to put this one...Recording Techniques or Gear Talk.

I suck at live sound. I keep thinking that with the gear I have up for PA stuff, getting a good sound should be pretty simple. Yet every time I get the PA up and running for band practice, it sounds like ass.

Here's what I'm working with. 4 piece band: Drums, Bass, Two Guitars, Three Singers. One set of old Peavey 18" Black Widows w/horns. I set of Crate 12" floor wedges w/horns. Electrovoice 7100 stereo amp for wedges (150w). Old Peavey powered mixer for Black Widows (800w mono). Teac Model 5 Mixing board feeding both amps.

You can get an idea of room dimension from the diagram....the ceilings are about 10', and slightly pitched. The room is somewhat treated w/ rigid fiberglass panels and auralex saw tooth 1'x1's...The walls are well insulated (inner and outer)

The vox are the only source coming out of all 4 speakers. I run the kick and a line out from the little bass amp (on north wall) directly to the Peavey amp so that these sounds only come from the Black Widows.

I've tried different room setups/orientations....But I always end up with REALLY boxy/bassy vocals. I've tried 58s, 57s, and am currently using some Nady DM70 drum mics for vocals. They seem to work the best. Seriously...for the cheap ass mics that they are, I really like them on vocals. Call me crazy.

I've also tried inserting Comp and Eq on the vox. It helps a bit, but I'm still having trouble dialing in. Frustrating...I feel like gettting good STUDIO sounds is a cake walk compared to getting the whole band sounding good live.

Oh, and we're not a terribly loud band. Think classic rock, with a bit of alt. country.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

[minorkeylee]

Should have mentioned that the main snag in all of this is getting the vocals loud enough, without feedback, and just plain crappiness.

[firesine]

You might have too much of the vocals going to those 18s and maybe having them in the corner is accentuating the boomy problem. But if thats the way it has to be set up, a HPF and low shelf on the vocal channel might help. I would start rolling off around 200 and see what's too much/not enough.

Edit: Graphic EQs are great for getting rid of feedback.

[RefD]

Edit: Graphic EQs are great for getting rid of feedback.

no way, you can't sweep frequency on almost all a graphic EQs.

narrow Q cuts with a parametric EQ are where it's at for feedback control.

[Brett Siler]

You might have too much of the vocals going to those 18s and maybe having them in the corner is accentuating the boomy problem.

I agree with this. Bass builds up in corners, you wanna get those speakers out of those corners and away from those walls if you can. You might be getting some reflections and build up of frequences, try moving them a few feet from the wall. Also it looks like you are blasting your PA into the vocal mics, which also could contribute to the feedback and bad sound. You guys might just work out better with some floor monitors. I would also get some sort of EQ (graphic or parameteric) and ring out the monitors, that can help a lot. You may even want a gate.

Ringing out Monitors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeV2BL-aRo
http://www.karensavoca.com/tech.html

[mscottweber]

From examining your diagram, it would appear that your main problem is the distance between your practice space and your beer...

[minorkeylee]

From examining your diagram, it would appear that your main problem is the distance between your practice space and your beer...

BINGO!!!!! Winner.

Problem solved. Thanks all!

[snoopy23]

I agree with the other posting, it looks like you are blasting your mains right back into your mic's. Here's my suggestions: Use the a monitor for the drummer, another for the lead vocals, put the mains in the same position, but at the opposing end of the room, facing back at you. This will reduce direct signal loops into the mics and reduce feedback. Also, check your horns and crossovers to assure that your speakers are faithfully reproducing the full spectrum of sound, a blown tweeter may not snap and crackle, it can just not supply any high end without other signs of it not working. You could also experiment with your band positioning, like perhaps arranging yourselves a bit more spread out and in a circular form rather than the standard "stage" set-up. Finally, I would consider adding some sound treatments (as simple as hanging some heavy packing blankets to kill some of the slap-back and put a stack of 2-3 pink panther insulation rolls in a corner to act as a makeshift bass trap) and see if that helps. If all this fails, check your mixer and amplification system, there has got to be a reason why the boxiness is inescapable. It may be worth it to rent a p.a. for the weekend and use it to see if you are still getting similar results. This is a sure way to discover if it is the room, the mic's, the speakers, or a combination of everything. Finally, you need to get the beer closer. This has proven to improve the sound of any room!
let us know how things work out!

Another hint for dealing with live sound (and IMHO the most important one:) When dealing with live mic's, make sure the gain is as low as possible and the faders and volume are as high as possible. More noise going into the mics = more noise coming out of the speakers. This is counterintuitive to recording, where a hot signal is preferred. Drop all the mic gains and crank the main output volume on the board, then bring the mic faders up until it sounds good. Ge tyour volume from the sliders, NOT the gain. Add the gain if you need a little, but try to avoid cranking it and you may find some magical results. Plus, it's free!! This, plus moving the speakers out from behind the mics may solve most of your problems. Good Luck!

[Andy Peters]

Another hint for dealing with live sound (and IMHO the most important one:) When dealing with live mic's, make sure the gain is as low as possible and the faders and volume are as high as possible. More noise going into the mics = more noise coming out of the speakers.

Ummmm, sorry, but that advice is completely wrong. Really, seriously wrong.

Gain is gain, whether you get it at the preamp or at the faders. The wash and vocals going into the mic are multiplied by all gain stages, regardless of whether all the gain is up front at the preamp or added later by the fader amplifiers.

And it's worse, because what you're doing is screwing your signal-to-noise, in the sense that noise figure is set by the FIRST gain stage (in this case, the preamp). So if you run the preamps cold and follow with two more stages of gain (the channel fader, say at +10, and the masters at +10 too) you are adding the fader gain stage noise to the input, making things worse.

The only way to solve the problem of backline wash affecting the vocal sound is to reduce or eliminate that wash at the source. Once it gets into the vocal mic, you can't get rid of it.

-a

[firesine]

Edit: Graphic EQs are great for getting rid of feedback.

no way, you can't sweep frequency on almost all a graphic EQs.

narrow Q cuts with a parametric EQ are where it's at for feedback control.

There's no need to sweep with a graphic. Use your ears, boost the general area you hear feeding back, pinpoint the frequency and then cut it. And what if you have more than two frequencies that are ringing? A 31 band graphic is way more useful than two bands of parametric, and more cost effective.

[firesine]

The only way to solve the problem of backline wash affecting the vocal sound is to reduce or eliminate that wash at the source. Once it gets into the vocal mic, you can't get rid of it.

And you can utilize mic polar patterns to keep the worst out of the mics. It looks like you are using cardioid mics, so place a speaker directly behind each mic where the rejection is best. Focus the monitors where you need them and use only the ones you need. Just blasting sound into the room won't help with monitoring but it will increase feedback, mud, and overall bad sound.

[snoopy23]

Another hint for dealing with live sound (and IMHO the most important one:) When dealing with live mic's, make sure the gain is as low as possible and the faders and volume are as high as possible. More noise going into the mics = more noise coming out of the speakers.

Ummmm, sorry, but that advice is completely wrong. Really, seriously wrong.

Gain is gain, whether you get it at the preamp or at the faders. The wash and vocals going into the mic are multiplied by all gain stages, regardless of whether all the gain is up front at the preamp or added later by the fader amplifiers.

And it's worse, because what you're doing is screwing your signal-to-noise, in the sense that noise figure is set by the FIRST gain stage (in this case, the preamp). So if you run the preamps cold and follow with two more stages of gain (the channel fader, say at +10, and the masters at +10 too) you are adding the fader gain stage noise to the input, making things worse.

The only way to solve the problem of backline wash affecting the vocal sound is to reduce or eliminate that wash at the source. Once it gets into the vocal mic, you can't get rid of it.

-a

I understand the science behind what you are saying, but in my 15+ years of running live sound I have found that lowering the gain is the most effective way to reduce feedback (and proximity effect). that and a little mic control, of course. Although you are right, the secondary gain stages are going to amplify what id going into the mic, the initial gain stage tells the mic how sensitive to be. Having a room full of mics with the pre's (gains) turned way up in a room with a bunch of instruments is the quickest way to get an earful of mud. And when I say to turn up the faders, I don't mean peg them at 10+, I mean rely on the master volume to support the projection of the sound as a whole, rather than reaching over and cranking the gain on the vocals until is is screaming for mercy. The master volume should be at a reasonably high volume, the individual channel faders should be up a bit, and the gains should be lower.While you cannot eliminate all the wash coming into the mic, by reducing the gain you can reduce the "reach" of the mic so that it is more focused on what is going directly into it rather than what is going on all around it.(simple experiment to prove this: set up a mic, crank the gain, make noise about 2 feet away and listen. Turn gain down, push faders up, step two feet away, make noise, listen.) if you can get your individual channel faders to unity (-0-) and still not hear the vocals, then reach for the gain to adjust as necessary. I do not mean the gain should be all the way down, but at least try them set at about 9:00 and work the faders a bit. Trying this will cost nothing and just may work. This approach has worked well for me in clubs, schools, and practice spaces on the crappiest Yorkville 6 channel boat anchors to the industry-standard Allen and Heath's . Common sense dictates that cranked gain+ nearby speaker = feedback. I agree the faders should not be pegged at 10, but on the other hand they should not be way down and the gains way up, this is a recipe for disaster in a small room. I guess the best advice to minorkeylee is to try everything and see what works the best.

[Snarl 12/8]

I just want to say 3 things, and then I'll shut up.

1) I would set the gain by setting the master and channel faders at zero, and then bring up the mic gain until it's at the right volume. I find this usually to be the cleanest since you're basically only have gain stage before the amp. Obviously you might have to boost the faders if you've got a quiet voice, or cut them if you're not getting enough juice from the preamps with your source/mic combo.

2) Don't mic the kick and bass, jesus, for practice?

3) I really don't think you have appropriate speakers. The black widows are probably better quality, but 18" and a horn isn't going to work well for vocals. Neither one of those drivers is very good at reproducing the heart of the vocal frequency range. And your 10", POS, Crate cabs are just going to suck regardless. You'd be better off with one EV 12" 2 or 3-way speaker fed with decent power and positioned as off axis to the mics as possible. I don't really like using 15" woofers on voice, but 18" is just too big.

Maybe get those 10" off the floor and get them up at head level, then you can keep their volume lower.

I dunno, that's what I think.

[snoopy23]

The way I have always understood it is that the gain (pre-amp) defines the sensitivity of the mic volume (what's going into the mic) and the master fader controls the volume of the mix going to the mains (what's coming out of the speakers). In live situations, turning the gain up on the mics seems to promote feedback, and lowering gain and boosting master fader always seems to result in a more controllable mix. Perhaps I should start a new thread and i don't mean to keep chewing a bone, but it is disturbing to have other contributers to a forum I love and respect tell me I am completely wrong. Is it true? Am I completely wrong? My experience says no, but some of the other poster's logic says yes.

I also agree with Snarl that the mains you have are probably not the best, if you could get some 12's or 15's rather than those huge 18's, it may eliminate some of the overabundant low end. And miking the bass? Is that really necessary in practice? A little kick I can understand, but just enough for definition (if you really, really need it).

[minorkeylee]

Sorry, didn't mean to start an argument here....

The bass isn't mic'd....its a line out from a teeny tiny 25w Fender Bassman. Necessary cause the little fella just can't cut it. Only going to the 18" speakers. Same with the kick. Not pushing a lot of it...Just trying to make the drummer feel good.

I think speaker placement is the key, which is the most useful thing I've gleaned here. The gain staging stuff is definitely helpful, as is the search and destroy feedback with an eq.

We practiced last nite and although I haven't moved the big speakers yet, I did manage to get the vocals in the ballpark. In the end, oddly enough, I ended up removing the eq inserts, and just using a straight board signal. I guess sometimes simple is best. I also used the four channels of 16 band eqs I have (cheap) just before the power amps, and tuned from there. Definitely helped.

Today I'll try to move the 18" to the east wall (opposite side) and one wedge will get moved to the drummers space.

Agreed, the speakers and amps are far less than ideal....but heh, they really don't sound THAT bad. Gotta work with what you've got, right?

As always, I'll say it again: Thank you guys. TapeOpers are fine people.