Reluctant to drop cash on a ?Flashy? LDC

themagicmanmdt · Post by **themagicmanmdt** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:57 pm

whenever i can, i remove the logos and/or position mic stands to hide any name brands of mics i use.

mixer - maybe who designed it. some outboard gear name dropping for freelancers.

honestly -

4 out of 5 people who record with me know jack shit about names of mics. yes, they've heard neumann, U47, etc etc, but they're smart to know that if they wanted something of that caliber, they'd be prepared to pay a much different studio than mine.

if you want to attract those people and that line of thinking - you can! they exist! grab em!

personally, i don't want to make music with people who use their eyes first and their ears second.

maybe i'm doomed to fail....recording with old dynamic mics and modding MXL's....

Gentleman Jim · Post by **Gentleman Jim** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:55 am

Brian,

Do you need a hug, buddy?

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:37 am

Gentleman Jim wrote:Brian,

Do you need a hug, buddy?

Yeah,

sniff.

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:22 pm

If you are trying to appeal to outside engineers, then I think it really helps to have some "name" gear. I like to go into a studio and have mics, pres, and monitors available that I know the sound of. However, I also like using gear I'm not familiar with if I have enough time to experiment a little.

I think overall it's more important to have a greater variety of good quality tools available than just a couple of the world's most expensive screwdrivers.

ott0bot · Post by **ott0bot** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:39 pm

decocco wrote:If you are trying to appeal to outside engineers, then I think it really helps to have some "name" gear. I like to go into a studio and have mics, pres, and monitors available that I know the sound of. However, I also like using gear I'm not familiar with if I have enough time to experiment a little.

I think overall it's more important to have a greater variety of good quality tools available than just a couple of the world's most expensive screwdrivers.

Couldn't agree more. Sometimes that name brand stuff is well know becasue it's quality gear and worth the purchase. And having standard gear that engineer can use is a good thing if someones renting your studio or you're hiring an engineer. Now if you're just picking up a Manley Vari EMU or something for show....whats the point. But if you do mastering or voice overs or lots of vocal tracks it's a pretty stellear piece of equipment. Just buying gear to brag and not use is a waste. But having a variety of tools is is what makes the job fun and allows for creativity for the engineer.

People always ask you to do odd signal path routing to capute a certain sound in thier head....and it sure helps to have a variety of gear to find that sound. That being said it doesn't have to be a chain of thousand plus dollar units to accomplish this....just some quality gear that has a variety of applications. I think everyone needs a few nice preamps, a few compressors or leveling amps, and a variety of mic's. You can do like 80% of the recording process with these items and of coarse a DAW, ADAT or tape machine.

I usually look at my gear purchases as an investment. I always scope out the resale price of most the gear I buy...so if it doesn't suit my purpose it will turn into cash to buy what I need.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:42 pm

You make a good point there. If I use someone else's pad there better be a real fun reason for showing up. Not girls or weed either, I mean working gear I don't have.

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:45 pm

Brian wrote:You make a good point there. If I use someone else's pad there better be a real fun reason for showing up. Not girls or weed either, I mean working gear I don't have.

Or a huge space that sounds excellent!

Artifex · Post by **Artifex** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Ryan Silva wrote:...I?ve used the standard d112, b52, 57 on inside kick quite a lot, all acceptable, but when I want to open up the kick and add deep lows I have turned to the aforementioned mics...

Have you ever tried using a speaker as a mic on the kick?

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Here's a funny thing I've noticed about "Name Gear" and peeps over the MANY years I've been doing this, and you gotta get, I spent y early days working on the very best gear out there in stellar spaces. I learned early on that gear manufacturers will innovate past the "status quo" and those who own the good ol' expensive stuff will trash talk it. Sometimes rightfully, not always.
Nothing wrong with the expensive stuff, usually.
I've also noticed that for a biz that has so much gear that has redundant purposes and crossover quality that there are a lot of guys who "should" be saying "mix with your ears" instead of your wallet, or, hype machine, whatever, who should be able to adapt to different locations, instead, insisting on certain gear, trash talkin if you don't have it.
I've never been one to care TOO much about what's in there when I go somewhere else to work, I'll get it to work "with my ears" and know-how.
CBGB's used to have one of the most awful and unmaintained boards and I got it to work. You never knew what was going to be thrown at you and no time to bitch when the star is on stage or in the room waiting on YOU to deliver your goodies with whatever is on hand so they can deliver theirs especially when they happen to be a big name artist who can wreck your life with a few words.

Jeff White · Post by **Jeff White** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:07 am

I have had a lot of luck when I started using unconventional mics (from a marketing point of view) for kick. My AT4047, my SM7b, and last November a borrowed EV RE20. Running any of these kicks through a nice preamp (Sytek, API) helped a lot too, but I've had success recording kick through a stock Presonus MP20. Also, the overhead choices make up a lot of our (my friends and I) drum sounds over here in Philly, and we have a nice concrete practice space with 14 ft ceilings to record in.

Regarding the U87, which I used a decade ago when I was in school at UNCA, I believe that the best bang for the buck out there for that German LDC sound is a 1970s Gefell UM70s. Check it out here: http://www.sound-dali.com/equipment/mic ... um70s.html. I've never put up a U87 and an UM70s side by side to compare, but I have used the UM70s extensively and feel that it has "that sound".

It is the 1970s Iron Curtain "poor man's U87". I believe it has the same capsule (someone please correct me if I am wrong about this!), multi-pattern, and goes used for around $1200 to $1500. It is the East Berlin Neuman. Literally. A product of WWII and the cold War. And it sounds fucking awesome. I'm not sure if the UMT 70s is the same mic (transformerless) as my friend's 70's UM70s, but it may be the same capsule. Visit http://www.mercenary.com/migeumt70s3p.html to check out the modern version of this mic.

I have used the UM70s extensively for vocals and acoustic guitar, as well as percussion and as a room mic for drums. It is an amazing mic. My friend found it at a sidewalk sale in Brooklyn about 10 years ago for $200. Total steal. He keeps it at my house and a group of us here in Philly use it for all of our recordings.

Microtech Gefell still has a great name and reputation and a totally interesting history. Again, the newer UMT 70s is tranformerless. check out this GS thread: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... um70s.html for a comparison between the two. the way that I see it, if you are going to grab a new U87, well, get a pair of the UM70s or UMT 70s instead. Two amazing mics for overheads. Not sure what kind of SPLs that they can handle, but you can probably use them on kick of you have overheads covered.

And, I will add, I own a bunch of LDCs... a 414 B/ULS, a pair of AT4050s, an AT4047, and a pair of OktavaMod 012 preamps and those Red RedHead caps, and there are a lot of times that these get used over the UM70s. Just depends on the source. The UM70s with the right preamp sound truly amazing, however the AT4050s and 414 do as well. And I have placed a 414 B/ULS and the AT4047sv simultaneously in front of a singer for a composite vocal sound with some great results, even back when I was recording through a Mackie Mixer.

Jeff

Jeff White · Post by **Jeff White** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:37 am

UM70s Followup from http://www.eqmag.com/article/great-amer ... p-05/12830:

The Microtech Gefell UM70S uses their PVC-based M7 capsule, which descends from the original U47. It?s a really solidly built mic with the same pattern selection, -10db pad, and roll-off as a U87. It has a very similar frequency response, but the mic range is so much creamier. That harsh midrange that I object to with the U87 is not there at all. Gefell, whose history I?ll touch on in the next section, is considered by many to be the ?real Neumann? by many, and has established a great reputation in top studios. However, people outside the pro audio loop are not that aware of it and it would take some explaining to make a client understand why they want to use this instead of a Neumann-labeled mic. In this respect, its slim profile and small appearance betray the image that should be associated with the sound of this mic. But make no mistake, this mic is a U87 killer. The MTG UM70 has a cult following and I am confident that it will one day achieve its well-deserved classic mic status. If you like the sound of a U87, I bet you will like this better.

Jeff

darjama · Post by **darjama** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 am

umt70: transformerless
um70: transformer

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:49 am

A perfect example of off topic hype, right there.

I had a "friend" guy opening a studio in town, posted an ad," is it the gear or the ears", (as if he didn't know, he didn't BTW), brought in a Gefell to use as overheads one day and a new Rode.
Neither one sounded like "all that" and I've used tons of Neumanns before, sounded nothing like them.
Hype.
They're OK mics, just not omnipotent.
I believe both of those could be had at the time for around $300 new.

Jeff White · Post by **Jeff White** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:00 am

darjama wrote:umt70: transformerless
um70: transformer

And after 5 more minutes online I discovered that the UM70s uses the M7 capsule, same capsule as the Telefunkin U47. So it is compared to the U87 but used the M7 capsule.

Brian wrote:A perfect example of off topic hype, right there.

I had a "friend" guy opening a studio in town, posted an ad," is it the gear or the ears", (as if he didn't know, he didn't BTW), brought in a Gefell to use as overheads one day and a new Rode.
Neither one sounded like "all that" and I've used tons of Neumanns before, sounded nothing like them.
Hype.
They're OK mics, just not omnipotent.
I believe both of those could be had at the time for around $300 new.

I've heard lots of folks say that modern Neumann mics sound like shit compared to their vintage cousins, too. I can't say that I've ever done such a taste test. I'll say this, though... the UM70s that I've grown to love sounds fantastic. Though I'm willing to try out anything vs. anything else, I'll always have a sweet spot for that mic. It sounds fucking amazing and I feel lucky to have it here for use anytime.

Jeff

ott0bot · Post by **ott0bot** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:03 am

calaverasgrandes wrote:
Brian wrote:You make a good point there. If I use someone else's pad there better be a real fun reason for showing up. Not girls or weed either, I mean working gear I don't have.
Or a huge space that sounds excellent!

Haha! Exactly! I've got some mid-range gear at my house...and I can record most anything. I don't have a stellar room, or any $1000 dollar mics, but I can make a nice sounding record. And if I have someone who wants me to engineer in a "real" studio...it better be worth me renting it.

Artifex wrote:
Ryan Silva wrote:...I?ve used the standard d112, b52, 57 on inside kick quite a lot, all acceptable, but when I want to open up the kick and add deep lows I have turned to the aforementioned mics...
Have you ever tried using a speaker as a mic on the kick?

I've seen this done but never tried it. What kind of speaker do you recomend? And what cables/signal routing seems to work best?

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