mixing outside the box

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

rpd158
audio school
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 7:18 am

Post by rpd158 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:26 am

Would you run the outboard gear (ie. Reverb, compressors, delay units, etc) through the aux channels (i have 4 on my board) in/out of the board? I'd have to, i guess, seeing as how there are no more outs available to run a processor loop through the digi002. Thats one setback, it cuts my in/out for effects in half (from 8 in/outs on the digi).
i haven't gotten so far out of the box yet as to use outboard gear - but i'm planning on doing that soon!

i don't know too much about the mixer you have, but chances are that each of the channels have inserts, and it's likely that the groups and the master section have inserts as well. the inserts allow you to send the channel's audio out to a piece of outboard gear, and then send it back to the channel, where it continues on its route through the mixer.

if you're not familiar how inserts work, i can give you a more detailed explanation.

chad_strung
studio intern
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:25 am
Contact:

Post by chad_strung » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:55 am

inserts are something of a mystery, it is true. From what i gather, if you use a TRS cable that has ring and tip splitter, the split ends go into the in and out of the compressor, and the other end goes into the insert point of a particular track, and that allows sound to go in and out?

(ring)---------\
---------------- (1/4 inch jack with two rings, TRS style)
(tip)-----------/

OK, and compressors (dynamioc effects) are better used in insert points, and reverbs and delays are better used in aux sends?
chad_strung
www.facebook.com/thehighstrung
www.honesttogoodness.bandcamp.com
www.the-mythics.bandcamp.com
Motu 828mkii/MacBook Pro (mid-2012)/Pro Tools 10/11/UA Apollo Duo Firewire

rpd158
audio school
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 7:18 am

Post by rpd158 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:47 pm

yeah, i think you've got it right.

User avatar
ballpein
pushin' record
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:20 am
Location: canada

Post by ballpein » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:57 pm

chad_strung wrote:
OK, and compressors (dynamioc effects) are better used in insert points, and reverbs and delays are better used in aux sends?
not necessarily - using the aux send for fx will let you blend the effected signal with the dry signal, where putting fx on the insert will give you a 100% effected signal. Typically, you'd want to blend a reverb or delay with a dry signal, but not always... putting a compressor on an aux send, and blending the compressed signal with dry is called "parallel compression" which is almost as cool as boobs.

chad_strung
studio intern
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:25 am
Contact:

Post by chad_strung » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:34 pm

i love boobs. but if you said it was as cool as thighs, then i'd be using it on every track.

Parrellel compression. It's a great sound, not to be over used. I didn't know it was called that.

thank you again, for you input.
chad_strung
www.facebook.com/thehighstrung
www.honesttogoodness.bandcamp.com
www.the-mythics.bandcamp.com
Motu 828mkii/MacBook Pro (mid-2012)/Pro Tools 10/11/UA Apollo Duo Firewire

Bedfordstop
studio intern
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by Bedfordstop » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:01 pm

dude, trust me, its not the mixing in the box thats the problem, its the preamps / converters that prevent you from getting detailed mixes that have depth and detail. because even though you might not realize it, there is this subtle fog or haze on the hi end and low end of every track that goes in. its hard to hear on each track individually. and Its not so bad if you do lots of midi stuff, or lots of direct synthesizers, but if you do all live (drums etc) stuff, the cumulative effect of combining 20+ tracks recorded with mediocre preamps and conversion is very problematic. i had almost your exact setup until about 3 weeks ago, and i just got the black lion sig series mod, and i almost cried when i heard it back. it was like taking off scratched, foggy glasses that i had been wearing for 5 years.

User avatar
ott0bot
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2023
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:54 pm
Location: Downtown Phoenix

Post by ott0bot » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:05 pm

Definately some great replies on this thread and special thanks to rpd158 for the detailed signal routing explanation. I used to work with alot of cassette recorders and I love the finesse that it takes to wrangle all them faders and knobs into a real stereo mix. Once I find a decent board I'll be all over this.

RefD
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:10 pm

Post by RefD » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:17 pm

*loves thighs and boobs and parallel compression*
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

User avatar
trodden
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:21 am
Location: C-attle
Contact:

Post by trodden » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:01 am

i started having fun mixing again and with better success (making better mixes is more fun, but both can be inclusive i guess), and enjoying the use/sounds/pleasure of outboard gear while mixing down when i started sending my 16 outs from PT LE into a soundtracs topaz. a hybrid of using some in the box automation/plug in use when needed, and the outboard/console world, like how I started using a console and tape machine/adat.

maybe if i had a more "pro" set up, an HD system or such.. then i could do more in the box mixes that sound cool... but that day probably will never come..

User avatar
trodden
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:21 am
Location: C-attle
Contact:

Post by trodden » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:05 am

ballpein wrote:
chad_strung wrote:
OK, and compressors (dynamioc effects) are better used in insert points, and reverbs and delays are better used in aux sends?
not necessarily - using the aux send for fx will let you blend the effected signal with the dry signal, where putting fx on the insert will give you a 100% effected signal. Typically, you'd want to blend a reverb or delay with a dry signal, but not always... putting a compressor on an aux send, and blending the compressed signal with dry is called "parallel compression" which is almost as cool as boobs.
i love boobs and thighs. And parallel compression on drums. current mix has kick and snare crushed by symetrix as well as two stereo drum mixes from PT one with a massey comp doing light work and the other with the fairchild 660 doing a lot of work.. both coming into the board on two separate stereo tracks along with the symetrix's mono kick and snare on another.

yeah i'm sure i could do that all in the box. But using the two virtual comps, and a few outboard comps.. free's up A LOT of processing power for other fun things.

chad_strung
studio intern
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:25 am
Contact:

Post by chad_strung » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:49 pm

parallel compression makes drums sound gigantic, and i liked it. But then i briefly spoke to friend who works in a big studio, etc, and he said i shouldn't use both the original track with the comp, so i stopped doing that. Now, i may go back and start using to see if it makes thing sound good, for drums especially. I didn't love that effect on most of the vocals i had tried it on.

Mixing out of the box, along with some in the box automation and effects makes sense, using hybrid of the best of both worlds, for now i have wired all my outboard effects into the 002, and i don't feel like re-wiring to do this particular project, so i'm gonna stay in the box for the most part on this, but the next project i do, i am gonna try what we are all talking about here. I just wanna get this done, and i really am learning a lot about pro tools by working with it for this project (which makes it more fun to use day to day).

oh, that mod for the converters, what kind of money are we talking about to get that done?
chad_strung
www.facebook.com/thehighstrung
www.honesttogoodness.bandcamp.com
www.the-mythics.bandcamp.com
Motu 828mkii/MacBook Pro (mid-2012)/Pro Tools 10/11/UA Apollo Duo Firewire

User avatar
trodden
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:21 am
Location: C-attle
Contact:

Post by trodden » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:52 pm

chad_strung wrote:parallel compression makes drums sound gigantic, and i liked it. But then i briefly spoke to friend who works in a big studio, etc, and he said i shouldn't use both the original track with the comp, so i stopped doing that.
why? isn't that the point of parallel compression... the comp'd track is running along parallel with the original?

chad_strung
studio intern
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:25 am
Contact:

Post by chad_strung » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:52 pm

yeah that's the point, but my friend advised me otherwise. I liked it, but he said it was not usually done. I am happy that this technique is common and i am willing to try it again
chad_strung
www.facebook.com/thehighstrung
www.honesttogoodness.bandcamp.com
www.the-mythics.bandcamp.com
Motu 828mkii/MacBook Pro (mid-2012)/Pro Tools 10/11/UA Apollo Duo Firewire

User avatar
trodden
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:21 am
Location: C-attle
Contact:

Post by trodden » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:41 pm

chad_strung wrote:yeah that's the point, but my friend advised me otherwise. I liked it, but he said it was not usually done. I am happy that this technique is common and i am willing to try it again
your friend needs to drink more reality and less hearsayl

User avatar
Nick Sevilla
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5555
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:34 pm
Location: Lake Arrowhead California USA
Contact:

Post by Nick Sevilla » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:35 am

ott0bot wrote:One (or two or three) quick questions...

So you are playing the audio in protools and sending it out of the digi 002, then mixing it via the board and summing the audio to send back to the digi 002, right. Now in order to record the incoming signal wouldn't you have to mute it? Otherwise you'd hear the incoming stereo mix and all the other tracks as the same time and have latency on the incoming tracks. It would sound like garbage, no? Or am I wrong about that?

I'm guessing you're monitoring from the board to avoid hearing all that...but how can you be sure your incoming stereo tracks sound good in pro tools with out monitoring the signal?

theres got to be a better way than I'm thinking...
In order to listen to the mix, you would output from ProTools like this:

Individual outputs to the mixer (channels 3-16, if possible, leaving out 2 channels just for monitoring the final mix from the mixer))

Main Mix from mixer into ProTools inputs 1+2.

This Mix channel outputs from 1+2 to the mixers TAPE input. This is what you would select as a monitoring source in the mixer, and out to the speakers.

The mixer has to be able to monitor more than one source, ie not only the mixer's channels mixes (the 2 buss) but also one more monitor source. Some mixers call it Tape, some call it Aux monitor, some cal it other things.

This will avoid feedback, because the main mix outputs from ProTools will NOT be in the mixers main mix buss.

Here's the signal path :

Pro Tools out
v
Mixer channel
v
Mixer main mix buss
v
ProTools input 1+2
v
Mixer Aux or Tape listen
v
Speakers

Cheers
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 67 guests