Analog Recording?

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:20 pm

cgarges wrote:
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:*drops reel of 2" on garges' foot*
... which is my fault for associating with you.

I think my particles are getting re-arranged.

Real pros never drop the 2".

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:31 pm

yes, i think one could safely say that shit don't play in LA. homie.

Zeppelin4Life · Post by **Zeppelin4Life** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:47 pm

mattvdh wrote:Everybody in audio engineering says that analog is the way to go to achieve a deep natural sound, but in reality 99% of engineers use digital. Why don't engineers just have a basic recorder for rehearsing takes and then once they are ready they use all analog based audio interfaces/amps/mixers? have musicians gotten crappier than ever or have 'engineers' been dumbed down to point and click? I don't understand this popular belief of analog being the best way to capture and play sound, but in reality its rarely applied! are we becoming cheaper (not in cost but in quality) and lazier at producing music lately?

Actually, I would have to say it's mostly because 99% of serious engineers can't afford to have a good analog studio (yes, there is bad analog)...

xonlocust · Post by **xonlocust** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:29 pm

wow - this thread is great! i saw the first few posts when they started and put the "not this conversation again' blinders on, but when i saw we were up to 7 pages i had to see what's transpired. well played everyone - been a while since we've had one of these!

jesse_baccus · Post by **jesse_baccus** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:51 pm

dwlb wrote: No, I won't argue a white paper or documents from the LoC. I will argue some dude on the Intertwines I don't know from Adam who posits something I've never heard of without offering any backup for it. If you've got something to back it up, I'll read it. I'm not unreasonable. I'm always open to the possibility there might be things in the world I haven't heard of. However, your presentation and attitude did not inspire much confidence.

I look forward to your corroborating data.

sorry for the delay, a lot of information to sift through, and articles i couldn't scan.
here are some pdf's i've uploaded:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mnnekmqz52n
http://www.mediafire.com/?wi05z04jno2
http://www.mediafire.com/?lyodjjwjd2z

here are some websites which have digitized pertinent white papers and conference transcriptions:
http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ramp/htm ... 704e11.htm
http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/index.html

here's an overall good page with lots of resources:
http://www.lib.washington.edu/Music/preservation.html

the library of congress' perspective:
http://www.archives.gov/preservation/co ... hauer.html

national archives and records administration perspective:
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byo ... 6-502.html

there are several publications with articles regarding the dropping off the tape and the loss of high frequency information. Most specifically Magnetics, and IEEE publication, which should be readily available at your local library,,

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:58 pm

cgarges wrote:
Ian D wrote:One point that I don't think has been brought up is that with tape you never get 'corrupt' files that wont open because a couple bits of information are missing. If a hard drive loses even a fragment of its data you risk losing large chunks of data.
Yeah, that's been mentioned a bunch. According to Jesse, if that happens, it's because of something you did.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

And that something would be using a hard drive.

*damn kids with your computers*

jesse_baccus · Post by **jesse_baccus** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:12 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:which is like saying if you get killed by a drunk driver it's your fault for getting out of bed and leaving the house.

haha!, yea...,
or not being aware enough to know that a speeding car is headed right at you...

*gets the fuck out of the way*

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:54 pm

jesse_baccus wrote:
dwlb wrote: No, I won't argue a white paper or documents from the LoC. I will argue some dude on the Intertwines I don't know from Adam who posits something I've never heard of without offering any backup for it. If you've got something to back it up, I'll read it. I'm not unreasonable. I'm always open to the possibility there might be things in the world I haven't heard of. However, your presentation and attitude did not inspire much confidence.

I look forward to your corroborating data.
sorry for the delay, a lot of information to sift through, and articles i couldn't scan.
here are some pdf's i've uploaded:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mnnekmqz52n
http://www.mediafire.com/?wi05z04jno2
http://www.mediafire.com/?lyodjjwjd2z

here are some websites which have digitized pertinent white papers and conference transcriptions:
http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ramp/htm ... 704e11.htm
http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/index.html

here's an overall good page with lots of resources:
http://www.lib.washington.edu/Music/preservation.html

the library of congress' perspective:
http://www.archives.gov/preservation/co ... hauer.html

national archives and records administration perspective:
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byo ... 6-502.html

there are several publications with articles regarding the dropping off the tape and the loss of high frequency information. Most specifically Magnetics, and IEEE publication, which should be readily available at your local library,,

Interesting.

so far, based on a cursory scan...one of the three pdfs you uploaded does mention high-frequency attenuation due to shock, though that particular reference is not footnoted. The other two documents do not mention it at all. Dr. Bogart's paper from the NTA site mentions that you should not drop tapes or cartridges but does not say why. A possible inference is that if you drop a reel or cartridge you may crack the housing.

The conclusion I am coming to is that, in light of the fact that 1) very little of your supporting documentation actually mentions the claim you're trying to back up, and b) various engineers on this board with combined decades of experience had never heard of this issue, is that while it may be a valid risk factor it sits somewhere between "passed too close to the in-door stereo speaker's magnet on the way out of the car" and "cursed by an old gypsy werewolf woman" on the list of things that can fuck up a reel of tape's day.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:03 pm

your mom was howling like an old gypsy werewolf last night.

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:04 pm

Back when I used tape reels, the reason I didn't want to drop them was because - holy fuck - the tape goes everywhere and takes an hour to get back on the reel.

xonlocust · Post by **xonlocust** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:13 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:your mom was howling like an old gypsy werewolf last night.

golf clap

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:21 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:Back when I used tape reels, the reason I didn't want to drop them was because - holy fuck - the tape goes everywhere and takes an hour to get back on the reel.

pancakes!

xonlocust wrote:
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:your mom was howling like an old gypsy werewolf last night.
golf clap

you can get the clap from that?

must be the shoes.

Justin Foley · Post by **Justin Foley** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:04 am

Reading through the stuff posted. For the most part, it doesn't help your argument. Hess (not surprisingly) gives the most detailed look at this.

= Justin

ormej01 · Post by **ormej01** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:01 pm

Another aspect is to look at how long manufacturers will guarantee that data will stay good on their disk drives. They seem to be very cagey about this - most seem to suggest it is "about ten years".

Maybe others will have more luck, but I could find very little about absolute length of time data would stay good, plenty about MTBF etc, but that is not the same thing.

ormej01 · Post by **ormej01** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:00 pm

Another aspect is to look at how long manufacturers will guarantee that data will stay good on their disk drives. They seem to be very cagey about this - most seem to suggest it is "about ten years".

Maybe others will have more luck, but I could find very little about absolute length of time data would stay good, plenty about MTBF etc, but that is not the same thing.

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