Analog Recording?

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Judas Jetski
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Post by Judas Jetski » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:26 am

I can't remember if this was already mentioned, and I don't have the time to go back and check, so apologies in advance if this has already been brought up, but:

If ferromagnetic particles can be moved by physical shock, and both analog tape and hard drives rely on magnetic storage, aren't both susceptible to corruption? Or is the argument that one format is more susceptible than the other? (CD format of course is not magnetic, but has longevity issues of its own.) I am interested to see what we can find out about this. Racking my brain a little, I do seem to recall hearing--back in the day--that sudden jolts to magnetic tape could cause loss of high frequency information. But that was definitely just hearsay, nothing approaching a professional context.
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firby
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Post by firby » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:29 am

jesse_baccus wrote:
cgarges wrote:
jesse_baccus wrote:digital storage is more reliable.
Sorry, but as an absolute that is just wrong.

I don't know one single studio that has lost an entire tape project through no fault of their own, just sitting around between projects. I can think of seven, yes SEVEN different incidents that happened to people I know personally where stuff was GONE, just COMPLETELY GONE, because of a hard drive crash. Was it entirely negligent on the part of the studio to have not had backups of sessions from paying clients? Hell yeah, it was, but I don't know of one single incident where this has ever happened with a project on tape.

Still don't buy it? Okay, since we're talking absolutes, DAT is a digital storage medium, right? Do you know how many DAT tapes I have in my closet at home that are ten years old or so and won't play back? Of course you don't, so I'll tell you: About ten. Take a guess at how many 20-25 year-old cassettes I have that won't play back at all. None.

Ever handled a reel of tape that's 40 years old? I have. With a little careful cleaning, they played back just fine. Find me some digital storage device from 30 years ago that can play back.

The reliability issue seems pretty obvious to me.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
tapes degrade, even after incubation, they are not true to what they were. i've done thousands of hours of tape restoration and transfer from all eras, and it doesn't always work, and if a tape was neglected, its not going to be useable. ones and zeros don't change through time.

The reason hard drives fail is because of misuse, if you are using harddrives correctly they have an extremely low error rate, and even when drives crash the information is not "completely gone." and can be recovered, unless a drive has been reformatted.

When people loose information it is always of fault of their own, whether or not they are willing to except it. Taxing a system while working off a hard drive, or not letting drives spin down, or any of the plethora of ways people misuse hard drives, is just as much their fault as if they put a tape on a speaker, or stored it in a basement.

There are more degradation problems with analog storage, and just as many things to be mindful of. Sure most open reels will restore with some accuracy, but there are a lot that wont. There is a lot of room for error in both mediums, but how long do you actually think there will be a knowledgeable generation to take care of all the problems that can arise with open reel tapes and tape machines? 100 years?

Binary code is here to stay, and if you don't f**k around with it, it won't f**k around with you. I have been using digital storage as a primary backup for the last 7 years solely, have never had a hard drive crash, and have never lost any information. You can't attribute operator error as a flaw in a medium,

and yes DAT's suck, sorry I wasn't specific in saying "hard disk digital storage." and DATs get f**ked up for the same reason analog tape isn't reliable, except more so because there's no correction for dropped packets, so instead of playing back sounding like s**t, it will opt to not play at all.

but you don't see labels backing their important data up to 2" do you? Even pharmaceutical companies don't back up their data to analog tape anymore. As a storage medium, digital disk has come to be more reliable.

argue all you want, but your "absolute" stance on it is a dream, and if people are losing so much on their hard drives, maybe they need to figure out what they're doing wrong.

I look forward to your rebuttal,,
My Rebuttal, respectfully, is this.

I don't buy it.

I am recording all digital though, at the moment. I have a multitude of work from the past on tape as well as early digital.

It is a real bitch to get some pieces that were recorded in cakewalk in 1998 back from the grave. Stuff on 8 track is easy.

In thirty years, the file formats, the software used to record, the devices used to record will have all moved on. However, there will still be some guy that will do 2 inch 24 track transfers.

And yes binary code is here to stay as well as to momentarily disrupt EVERY new application that it touches.

Glad that I skipped ADAT.
I'm a bad man!

themagicmanmdt
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Post by themagicmanmdt » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:49 pm

on argument VI - which I adopt!

this means that the oxide backing has viscosity, which means that it also has a measurable liquid-like behavior, like a vinyl record but on a much more 'rigid' scale.

it's possible that the viscosity of the oxide backing can be measured.

if the viscosity isn't measurable, or doesn't exist, then the problem may be caused due to a low bonding strength coefficient of the oxide to itself and/or the tape.

if it is neither of these, and simply a property of force transferring charge to nearby particles (this variable force can be measured and hopefully defined as a constant or an equation with force as a variable), then I propose that new formulations of containing magnetic charge that can be applied to magnetic tape (and therefore continuous wave recording) be formulated.

- mr. science
we are the village green
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god bless +6 tape
valves and serviceability

*chief tech and R&D shaman at shadow hills industries*

Judas Jetski
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Post by Judas Jetski » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:37 am

This is totally unscientific and really just a hunch, but ever since I heard about the "jolt = hf rolloff" thing I've always assumed it was because the binder needed to be viscous enough to allow the magnetic particles to respond to the signal applied to them during recording. But then I was about 12 when I first assumed this.

...but then again, this was the early 80s in Rochester NY, a time and place where audio geekery ran free like the wild gazelle upon the savannah. So although I heard it from my cousin (who is just 'some guy' to the pro-audio community) there's no telling who he heard it from.
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"Avoid trends and clich?s/don't try to be up to date/and when the sunlight hits the olive oil, don't hesitate"

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MoreSpaceEcho
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:17 am

themagicmanmdt wrote:if the viscosity isn't measurable, or doesn't exist, then the problem may be caused due to a low bonding strength coefficient of the oxide to itself and/or the tape.
i'm not sure there's really much of a problem in the first place.

Judas Jetski
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Post by Judas Jetski » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:26 am

Yeah, I should specify that I have no opinion whatsoever about whether or not it's actually possible. Just why, if it were possible, it would be possible. Quick, somebody, post another picture of a ferret!
Check out the newest Andy Smash release, Black Light / Black Death! http://andysmash.bandcamp.com !


"Avoid trends and clich?s/don't try to be up to date/and when the sunlight hits the olive oil, don't hesitate"

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T-Recs
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Post by T-Recs » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm

I just skipped from page 2 of this thread to page 11, just to see if it went anywhere more interesting.

Nope!


back to the grind...

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shedshrine
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Post by shedshrine » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:18 pm

T-Recs wrote:I just skipped from page 2 of this thread to page 11, just to see if it went anywhere more interesting.

Nope!


back to the grind...
I don't know, Page 4 was kinda fun..

MoreSpaceEcho
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:45 am

i think there were some good bits around page 8...

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roygbiv
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Post by roygbiv » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:10 am

I like this part the best.

The thread is now self-aware.

It thinks "my god, what have I done with my life?"

Its life flashes before its eyes "Good times. Bad times. You know, I've had my share."

The end cannot be far now.
"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:17 am

roygbiv wrote:I like this part the best.

The thread is now self-aware.

It thinks "my god, what have I done with my life?"

Its life flashes before its eyes "Good times. Bad times. You know, I've had my share."

The end cannot be far now.
*He said, dragging on the thread for yet another day.*
Carl Keil

Almost forgot: Please steal my drum tracks. and more.

RefD
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Post by RefD » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:42 am

is this how Skynet starts?

no WONDER it wants us all dead!
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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roygbiv
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Post by roygbiv » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:14 am

Image
"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

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shedshrine
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Post by shedshrine » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:46 am

Dave.........................

Dave, what are you doing?................

Why are you banging my primary processor memory module core against the ships framing?

Dave?..................

Don't you realize my entire memory complex has been backed up to tape via offsite transmission Dave?





(Dave continues banging)



Fine Dave, Do you want to here a song?....



Daisy, Daisy,....

RefD
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Post by RefD » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:23 pm

Image
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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