Live Sound help

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pskjr
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Live Sound help

Post by pskjr » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:41 pm

This doesn't really apply to recording techniques, but I wasn't really sure where else to put this topic. I've recently started helping out with the live sound at my church, usual set up on stage is a full drum kit, 6 mics (kick, snare, rack tom, f tom, 2 OH), two electric guitars (mics on the amps), bass (line out to board), one or two acoustic guitars depending on who's playing and what songs (DI to board), and anywhere from 3-5 vocals. The guy who has been running the sound is very technically savvy, but that's about as far as it goes. For EQ, compression, any other outboard dynamic stuff, he's lost. This is where I come in because I'm currently going to school for this and have more knowledge in that area (but not much lol). I've been having a problem with getting good guitar sounds coming from the mains. We started messing around with EQ's on the guitars, kick drum, snare, and vocals today, and I was wondering if the same basic EQ adjustments work in live sound the way they do in recording, and I need some tips on how to position the guitar amps, and what techniques there are for cutting down on the stage sound so we can get most of the mix into the mains. The biggest problem we had was that the guitar amps were too loud on stage, and even after turning down quite a bit it was hard to get more from the mains than from the stage. So basically here are my questions....

1.) Where and how should the guitar amps be positioned on stage (or maybe isolated underneath the stage)?
2.) EQ adjustments? What works best for live sound, particularly with guitars, female voice, and kick?

kingtoad
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Post by kingtoad » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:03 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about having "more guitar in the mains than onstage" in a small venue. Anywhere under a certain size you are just reinforcing what's already there. I'm guessing in a church setting that things aren't going to be massively loud so I can't see you needing too much of things like guitars/overheads in the mains. Then again I don't know what the vibe is at your church.

The EQ techniques you've learned for the studio should still apply, but obviously you're going to be doing a lot more compensating for room resonances than you would with most studio recordings.

Doing live sound is a great way to train your ear and increase your breadth of knowledge, by the way. You'll really find it helps your studio stuff as well.

PeterAuslan
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Post by PeterAuslan » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:00 pm

Not all mixing has to happen at the console. On smaller stages it helps to
get each musician who uses an amp to play with the drummer and set amp volumes so they can hear themselves balanced against the drums.
If you do this with each person the band is already mixed and you are using the PA to fill the sound out a bit. You should have plenty of headroom for vocals and acoustic guitars at this point.

If the vocalists are close to the drums you may want to strike the overheads as
they become redundant.

Both of these suggestions work better on smaller stages.

argonautlabs
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Post by argonautlabs » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:26 pm

I agree with everything that has been said. Live sound for small venues is a lot more "reinforcement" than anything. Start by leaving everything off and add what is needed to fill it in. Making sounds come from the mains when there is plenty coming from the stage is just going to make everything too loud. And most likely your mains aren't delayed so its probably going to be out of phase and sound like confusion.

Also having the guitarist turn his amp so low or put so far away that you have to put it in his monitor doesn't help much when the sound from the back of the monitor is going to be nearly as loud but way muddier and out of phase. (Not to mention he won't play well if he can't hear himself.) Then you have to really dump it in the mains to mask the monitors and its just too loud. I find I'm better off on small venues when I let musicians use their amp as their guitar monitor (of course there is a limit for those who are louder than god) and use very little in the mains just to fill the areas directional guitar cabs don't hit well. Same thing goes with plexiglass around the drums for me, just makes whats coming off the stage sound bad and you end up trying to mask it rather than reinforce it.

Just in general i don't try to mask things. you really can't, unless everyone has in-ears.

And yeah, if its a small stage I don't even bother with overheads. I just close mic and add only as needed (usually mostly kick and toms, snare bleeds everywhere IF the drummer is doing it right :) ).

Compression?! good luck! (or horrendous feedback)

locosoundman
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Post by locosoundman » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:21 am

One thing that might help to get the guitarists to turn down would be to put the amps a bit closer to their ears - get them up a little higher or angle them up towards the players.

I don't know how big your church is - some are nothing more than storefronts, others would put some large theatres to shame. Some are cavernous echo chambers, others are as dry as can be. Two questions that immediately come to mind are what sort of room are we talking? Do you have monitors on stage?
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
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pskjr
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Post by pskjr » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:02 pm

we currently hold service in a middle school. the room is a little smaller than a gym. very tall ceilings. the stage is very large. if you go to www.truenorthnj.com the home page has a picture of the stage. the current monitor setup is one for drums, and 4 up front for the vocals. the guitars usually just monitor off of their own amps. the way the mains are set up is that they are way out to the sides of the room, pointing towards the back center of the room. being up front you get mostly stage sound since the mains are so far out, but being in the back is where you hear the mains the most and since its so far away it needs to be pretty loud, needing mics on everything including overheads. the room is very live sounding, lots of reflections going on and they're very hard to tame so i know getting a good sound is going to be nearly impossible, i just need the best sound. a huge problem we have is that the female vocalists are always complaining about the stage volume and that they cant hear themselves, but when im on stage checking levels the vocals coming through the 4 monitors are extremely loud over everything else. also having 4 female vocals all singing at once most of the time is a bit overbearing, very shrilly, lots of sibilance, but since i just started helping out i cant really tell them what to do haha. if it were up to me id have two female voices, 2 male voices, one female or male for back up harmonies occasionally. but they insist on having 4 female, 1 male. oh well, i guess no job would be a job without workarounds. we did talk about getting amp stands for the guitars. also talked about positioning people differently on stage. having the drums be off to the left, guitar in the middle, bass probably just going DI, and another guitar on the right, keys DI.

locosoundman
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Post by locosoundman » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:10 am

Sounds like a nightmare of a gig actually. How big is the room?
having 4 female vocals all singing at once most of the time is a bit overbearing, very shrilly, lots of sibilance
This could have as much to do with EQ and mic choice as having 4 female singers. What mic's are they using? Of course, cheaper stage monitors also have this sonic characteristic as well, and judging by your description of the venue, you probably have to boost this frequency range in the mains just to be able to understand anything they are saying/singing.

In-ear monitors might actually be a better way to go with the singers. "Delay stacks" might help you in the room itself - you wouldn't have to push the mains as hard. Side-fill monitors on stage might help the singers and band to hear each other - or it might turn into a mushy wash - hard to say without really knowing the place.
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
- Pogo Possum

pskjr
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Post by pskjr » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:05 pm

next time i'm there i'll get some dimensions. like i said i just started helping out so i don't know all of the details yet. i've mainly been focusing on drum miking and the guitars. this Sunday during setup i'm going to ask if i can step in on the board and mess with some stuff. haven't really had the chance to do that with the drums or vocals yet. only got to mess around eq'ing the guitars so far. but hopefully during sound check they let me step in for a little bit. but once i get dimensions of the room i'll post em up here.

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