Pro Tools and My Freelancing Future

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Pro Tools and My Freelancing Future

Post by Jeff White » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:50 pm

I am considering stepping up my freelance career, especially since I am out of work right now and have a nice mobile setup.

However, I am curious regarding Pro Tools LE. I have been considering getting a PT rig for some time. I've been using Digital Performer since 2003, and I have tapeop'd one project in Pro Tools. I would love to learn i since it is industry standard. However, the only LE option that I will consider is an 002r or 003r, and then send it off to Black Lion for modding.

Since both of these units are firewire, I am assuming that they are both compatible with Pro Tools 8, correct? I am concerned, though, about PT session compatibility (backwards/forwards), both software and hardware compatibility (002r support gets cut-off in six months or something, etc).

I could always record in Digital Performer and then make everything left-side zero-timeline compatible for import into PT. Hand it off. However, I'm starting to think that having my own BLA-modded Pro Tools LE rig is the way to go for freelance stuff. You know, record on client's drive then they take it with them I am done, or get a drive and easily open a PT session to mix, etc. And for more inputs I can simply ADAT lightpipe in my BLA 828mk2 and master/slave it as/to the better clock.

Looking for some simple answers, since I am a total newbie when it comes to PT. I don't want to put out the cash to purchase and mod something that is going to be obsolete in 6-12 months.

Thanks!

Jeff
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Post by The Scum » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:29 pm

I don't want to put out the cash to purchase and mod something that is going to be obsolete in 6-12 months.
In that case, be wary of the 002...the 003 will have a longer supported lifespan. Do you remember how quickly & unsympathetically Digi cut off support for Mix systems when HD came out?

How much demand have you, personally, had for PT session compatibility? If it's something that will actually bring clients to you, it could be an asset. If clients will come to you regardless, then it's not such a big concern. I know people who could state very clear cases for both sides of that argument.

In general, the only real way to make something cross-compatible is using flattened .wav/aiff files. It's hard to say what the next generation of DAW will provide in terms of features in it's session files, but it'll still be able to eat/excrete wavs.

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Post by Bro Shark » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:34 pm

PT8 should theoretically open any older PTLE session no problem.

002R is decent, you end up jury-rigging weird workarounds due to the varied inputs.

1-4: OK, these have built in pres
5-8: Line level only -- are these different from 1-4 set at "0"? don't know
9-16: Optical
17-18: SPDIF

So you end up rocking all these different converters to make everything happen all at the same time.

There's a part of me that wishes I would have just gotten an HD24 system instead. This way you can just get a console and outboard gear and know what the fuck's going on across all channels without a bunch of hogwash and clocking issues and latency, etc.

Oh, and the 002R doesn't have clock in/out. So if you have multiple digital devices working together you can get screwed. The 003 has BNC word clock in/out.

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Post by chris harris » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:46 pm

I made myself "Pro Tools Compatible" for less than $500. I picked up a used M-Audio Profire Lightbridge and a used copy of PT M-Powered. I just connect the converters that I was already using with DP to the M-Audio box and go to work. Though, to be honest, I mostly just use the headphone out or the SPDIF out from the M-Audio box. I still don't work extensively with PT. But, I have it. And, I am getting more and more familiar with the software, which I'm sure will be an asset someday. I mostly just use it to either: 1. consolidate audio files in clients' PTLE projects to bring into DP for mixing, or, 2. drop audio files recorded at my studio into a PT session for clients to work on at home.

I may or may not ever do any serious work in PT. But, for now, the minimum investment I've made in it is totally worth the time I've saved having to explain to musician/home-recordists how to consolidate their own sessions at home.

I have run into a few instances where clients were using a newer or older version of PT than what I was using and the sessions wouldn't open. Thankfully, PT has the ability to save in legacy formats that will open in other versions of the software. Just make it a point to know what version of PT that your clients are using and you'll be fine.

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Post by weatherbox » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:03 pm

If yer liking the DP setup and just want to be able to open/edit PT files maybe one of those MBox Micro things would work? Could at least take PT sessions then and prep them for export to your DP rig and print any protools specific plugs. PTLE is IMO useful for mobile recording of parts on sessions that are primarily being worked in a PTHD setup. For mixing or serving as a main platform without HD it's definitely got it's limitations.

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Post by themagicmanmdt » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:31 am

as I heard from the black lioners myself -

the only difference between the 002 and the 003 is simply that the 003 is ROHS certified due to the restrictions in England that require all technology imported or bought to meet those standards.

apparently we're lax over here and can still make the 002 using the old nasty chinese plants. but the 003 is primatily the same, just more expensive due to the ROHS issue.

i bet you can call them and they'd tell you, too -
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Post by chris harris » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:04 am

I bet that I could call them and tell them that that is inaccurate.
There are other differences besides the solder used. I bet that when you plug it in to your computer, the computer can tell whether it's an 002 or an 003. And, your computer cannot detect RoHS compliance in solder.

I'm sure that the analog circuitry and the AD/DA conversion are similar, if not the same. But, at some point, if history is any indicator, you'll be able to plug in an 003, open the current version of the software and go to work, while you won't be able to do the same with an 002.

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Re: Pro Tools and My Freelancing Future

Post by Dakota » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:11 pm

ipressrecord wrote:However, I'm starting to think that having my own BLA-modded Pro Tools LE rig is the way to go for freelance stuff. You know, record on client's drive then they take it with them I am done, or get a drive and easily open a PT session to mix, etc. And for more inputs I can simply ADAT lightpipe in my BLA 828mk2 and master/slave it as/to the better clock.
That's a very reasonable way to do it, and that's basically what I did for my home rig. BLA sig series 002r, with another BLA mod piece on the adat line for the other 8 i/o.

Being able to go back and forth with HD session in progress is pretty critical to me having all my work options in flow. I do a lot of varied freelance.

I'm not too worried about LE updates not staying compatible on the 002r for the next batch of years. The 003 is not that different a beast than an 002.

Other way to go: get a used original mbox on craigslist for $100, maybe less. Still works well to get pt sessions open and get some editing done.

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Post by Jeff White » Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:34 pm

It'll have to be the 003r because I need BNC Wordclock.


Jeff
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Post by tonejunkee » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:58 pm

I've had the mbox1 since 2005 - it has seen more use than you could imagine and continues to be rock solid. In fact, It has worked perfectly through PT6.9 all the way to PT8. Whats funny is that I create music and sound for a living and have been relying on this mbox heavier than most would ever attempt. This thing will not die! I actually heard somewhere that the original mbox has better mic pres than all of the new models.....not sure about that, but this thing is well made.

I used my friends 003 w/digimax last night and has not so much as a hiccup. I plugged it in and everything went smoothly.

The black lion mod has been of interest to me. I will be getting an 003 soon and would like to get it done. The timecode compatability us a huge plus
Last edited by tonejunkee on Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ctmsound » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:30 pm

Just to clarify, the 003 was a refresh. Digi did state that. They did it to meet ROHS standard and to keep the product line current. Aside from the addition of word clock, it's pretty much the same beast.

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Post by Jeff White » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:07 pm

I guess I have a dual purpose in going with a Black Lion Modified Pro Tools rig. Obviously there is the ability to move sessions back and forth easily. However there is also the additional hardware that will sound amazing and can be combined with what I already have.

I guess the other route that I can go is the MBox Micro, which will give me Pro Tools for cheap in order to transfer in and out of Digital Performer, which I am really happy with and have been using for almost six years (I'm still on version 4.61). The only problem with the MBox Micro is the fact that it is output only via 1/8", and I know that the D2A converters will be shit. I am so used to the quality conversion that I am getting on my Black Lion 828mk2 and my Apogee Duet that I can't step backwards in sound quality. To me it is the most important thing. It makes picking up Pro Tools LE for $250 not worth it.

There is M-Audio's Transit USB for $80 (http://www.midiman.com/products/en_us/Transit.html). Since it has an optical output, I can run it as a bridge into my BLA 828mk2's optical input (the ADAT i/o can be switched to TOSLINK (or whatever 2 channel optical is called). However, I am unsure of how the clocking will work. Does the Transit have to be the Master Clock, or can I send clock from the 828mk2 into Pro Tools M-Powered? If the 828mk2 can be the master clock into Transit, I feel that this is the solution. Transit and M-Powered, digital into my BLA 828mk2 for monitoring through good D2A, so I could mix out of Pro Tools without having to move everything into DP.

Another solution would be to Rewire Pro Tools into Digital Performer for monitoring, but I'd still need the hardware. But I'd loose plug-ins and create a scenario where converting from WAV in PT to SD2 in DP would get around this.

And then again, I simply exported a bunch of WAV files from DP yesterday after tracking drums all weekend so my friend can record guitars are home in Cubase. He wants complete control over the basis tracks (guitar/bass/drums) that I recorded. I'll simply import his files into DP to Mix. This requires nothing else but I can't open Pro Tools files, and we all know that I am relying on a client to provide me with left-aligned files for import.

Then there is the Lightbridge. That'll allow me to mult-track using my current setup, but limit me to 8 tracks at 44.1K or 48K with the 828mk2.

Some ways to avoid a $2000 price tag.

Jeff
I record, mix, and master in my Philly-based home studio, the Spacement. https://linktr.ee/ipressrecord

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Post by ott0bot » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:52 pm

ipressrecord wrote:
There is M-Audio's Transit USB for $80 (http://www.midiman.com/products/en_us/Transit.html). Since it has an optical output, I can run it as a bridge into my BLA 828mk2's optical input (the ADAT i/o can be switched to TOSLINK (or whatever 2 channel optical is called). However, I am unsure of how the clocking will work. Does the Transit have to be the Master Clock, or can I send clock from the 828mk2 into Pro Tools M-Powered? If the 828mk2 can be the master clock into Transit, I feel that this is the solution. Transit and M-Powered, digital into my BLA 828mk2 for monitoring through good D2A, so I could mix out of Pro Tools without having to move everything into DP.

Jeff
I think you can make the 828mkII your master. I use a presonus digimax D8 for my adat into my 003 and until I got a bnc cable...I had to make it my master or i couldn't use it. So as long as you can convert the optical to the stereo optical in the Trasit and protools recognizes the unit, it should work.....yeah....should...but I have no experience with that device.

Seems to me the best solution....although not the cheapest is to get a used 002 or 003. I got my 003 on craigslist for $650....so just keep searching. Then you could use the 003/002 as your protools interface but connect your 828mkII via adat...make that the master via adat and use it to do your tracking. Then you could eventually get it bla modded if the PT jobs make you enough cash. If not then it's probably not worth it. The AD/DA conversion isn't really that bad in a stock 003/002. It's not lynx or apogee but it does quite well for me and my little home studio. Plus you could use it for your adat input for you're 828mkII.

To me all the other mbox, micro's mini's and what not aren't really worth it. I owned the mbox2 for several years....and yeah it works, but the lack of low latency monitoring was annoying. You had to mute incoming tracks or adjust the buffer constantly. Plus having the BNC in/out is pretty much a must have in this digital era....that way even if you upgrade to a master clock you'll be able to sync all your gear.

just my $1.49 of input.

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Post by rwc » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:04 pm

I would find someone selling some 3-4 year old HD system, and buy just the software and the cards. Or buy the 192s and sell them.

Then buy a lynx aurora 16 b stock or used with the protools HD card.

This is so much simpler than "adat for drums, spdif for guitar but only using one of them, use internal clock for input 1-4" nonsense.

Or, get an mbox micro and use protools solely to export stuff out into your DAW of choice.

All the inbetween options seem like so much hassle and added confusion to make protools LE into something it's not.
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Post by Jeff White » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:42 am

An HD system is not going to work for me. It's too much money, and overkill. And to top it off, I'm doing most of my tracking remotely, so I'm going to upgrade my computer to a MacBook Pro at some point. I need to remain in the firewire world. I do appreciate your advice, though.

I guess the main thing is that I want to learn Pro Tools. I want to be able to step into any room and use Pro Tools. I feel like it is the next logical step for me as a freelance recording dude, for both tracking and mixing anywhere.

In order to learn Pro Tools, I have to have Pro Tools at home. So I can either spend $250 for M-powered + $80 for the Transit (which is much better than the M-Box Micro IMHO), or look for a used Digi 003r with all of the software for under $700. The advantage of having the 003r is that I can use the hardware in addition to what I already have, and if I decide to get the BLA mod I'll have three really nice sounding interfaces (BLA 828mk2, Apogee Duet for smaller gigs into DP, and the BLA 003r). It may be worth it to me to sell the Duet for an 003r and just put together a smaller remote rack instead of simply using the Duet.

It also seems to me that the best way to be compatible between DAWS, and even different versions of DAWs, is still to simply left align everything and export as WAV files. It just works with everything. If you are exporting for a mixing person and there are critical plug-ins used to make decisions during tracking, bounce through the plug-ins and provide the raw file as well and label accordingly. No one is going to have the same plug-ins (who uses only stock plugs these days?), or the same version of Pro Tools, or whatever. So even if I have Pro Tools I'll probably end up doing this shit anyway to maximize compatibility.

Like I said, i just did this on Sunday to get between Digital Performer and Cubase with zero issues. Simple.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

Jeff
I record, mix, and master in my Philly-based home studio, the Spacement. https://linktr.ee/ipressrecord

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