Kick Drum Experiments?

jeff_moberg · Post by **jeff_moberg** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:09 pm

Hey Everybody,

In May I'll be heading into the studio again with my bands drummer to lay down the drum tracks for a new album. But I really want to get that huge kick drum sound *naturally* without using a trigger.

So what I was thinking of doing was throwing an AKG D112 in the drum as usual, but then putting an Audix D6 on the outside right next to the beaters to really get the attack. Has anybody tried doing this or something similar? Any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks!
-Jeff

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:18 pm

I find I get a huger sound from further back. Right up on the beater, from both sides, is a very limited picture of what's going on with the drum. I was really surprised when I pulled my D112 back about 18" - 2' from the resonant head. It was the first time I was really happy with that mic. I'd mic it close for the clicky definition and a few feet out for the bigness, then you'll have options at mix time. Try an LDC a few feet out aimed at the kick. Assuming a good drum, in a good room with a good drummer. Hugeness.

mikeyc · Post by **mikeyc** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:26 pm

+1 on backing away from the drum. My starting point is usually about 2 feet in front of the kick. If you need the clicky stuff, mic inside. I usually get what I want with a single mic outside though... Depends on the type music --and your definition of huge.

jeff_moberg · Post by **jeff_moberg** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:35 pm

hmm yeah thats a good idea actually. So you mean move the D112 back so that it captures the boomy bass, and use the D6 for the clicky attack, then mix them together?

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:01 pm

I'd use the D6 for the back mic, because in the catalog it says you can put it anywhere and it sounds great.

No, seriously. Try other mics too. Do you have access to an LDC? You don't only have to use "the kick mic" on the kick. Someone the other day was talking about how great the D112 is on floor tom. You'll get more subby stuff (arguably) from an LDC. You could try a Subkick too.

Oh, and UTFSF.

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:06 pm

I would use either the D12 or D6 inside the kick, and use an LDC in front of the kick. It sounds bigger and more hi-fi if you get the outside mic a foot or more away from the drum. If you don't have an LDC of some kind, I would put both mics on the outside of the kick and listen to which one you prefer. Stick the loser inside the kick.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:08 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote: Someone the other day was talking about how great the D112 is on floor tom.

that wuz me. i like it on kick too, a ways back, like everyone is saying. i find that even with a closed front head you get a surprising amount of beater click from a mic a foot back from the head. i've never been too into the sound of a mic inside the kick fwiw...

jeff_moberg · Post by **jeff_moberg** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:10 pm

Unfortnately, I dont have much selection for kick/bass mics, but here is a list of what I will have access to...

AKG D112
Audix D6
B&K 4004 x2
AKG 414 x2
AKG CK91 x2
AKG 535
Beyer 201 Groove Tubes x4
EV 408's x4
MXL 1006 x2
EV RE20
Shure SM57's/58's
PZM x2
Neumann TLM-103 x2

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:16 pm

EV RE20
Shure SM57's/58's
PZM x2
Neumann TLM-103 x2

Are all worth trying. I've found the TLM too be kindof sucky, but who knows.

I'd be trying that RE20 first and foremost.

Also, make sure the kick sounds huge in the room. Take the pillow out. Find the right spot in the room. Use the right beater and heads. Tune it up good (and maybe higher than you think.)

jeff_moberg · Post by **jeff_moberg** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:EV RE20
Shure SM57's/58's
PZM x2
Neumann TLM-103 x2

Are all worth trying. I've found the TLM too be kindof sucky, but who knows.

I'd be trying that RE20 first and foremost.

Alright, I'll definitely be experimenting with all of these mics. Im planning on booking the studio for 8 hours, and taking the first two hours to play around with different mics and different techniques.

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:40 pm

edit: (A post ended up in the wrong thread, so I moved it. That is all.)

mscottweber · Post by **mscottweber** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:58 pm

Are you going to be engineering the session, or is there a house engineer taking care of that?
No disrespect is meant here, but if you are engineering the session yourself and you are new to tracking drums, keep in mind that it can take a LOT longer than you would imagine. Setting up a drumset takes a bit of time, and getting everything properly mic'ed takes time as well. Then the parts have to be performed well...

Again, I mean no disrespect, but coming from someone else who is a still fairly wet behind the ears when it comes to recording, tracking drums has always, every single time, taken longer than I planned it to, even when I factored in extra time.

Also, +1 on the RE20 for the kick!

jeff_moberg · Post by **jeff_moberg** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:13 pm

Yes, I am going to be engineering the session. And no, I'm not new to tracking drums, I just simply want to get a certain sound and was looking for ideas.

But yeah, the set-up of the drums is before the time starts, so the two hours will strictly be for sound checks and achieving that sound. I'm really not worried about time for the performing (I know that sounds rediculous), but the drummer is very experienced with doing session drumming, and can do these songs almost perfect in one or two takes.. it sounds impossible, but this guy is surprisingly tight!

Corey Y · Post by **Corey Y** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:52 pm

I try not to have a "go to" too much, since not every project has the same needs, but I like a dynamic inside pointed at the beater for attack and a LDC at least 12" back from the res head for the big thud. The dynamic I like the most, weirdly enough, is a cheap no name kick mic that came with an old drum mic set I bought years ago. It is terribly wrong for most projects by itself, but sounds great when you're just trying to get that "click" of the beater. For in front I like a AT4047. How far back I put it just depends on the kit and the drummer and what sort of tone fits best.

If there's a lot of space in the drummer's style and I want something big and roomy sounding I will sometimes use an omni room mic (Bova Ball!) at least 3ft away, centered on the kick, at about the height of the top of the kick's rim. Occasionally I've been happy with dropping the close mic completely with that setup.

If you have the time to experiment try things out. It's good to practice and refine techniques but I think it's just as important to not get trapped into one way of doing everything every time. There's a lot of variety to be found with how you place/aim both mics with each of those setups, to say nothing of mic choice, room, etc.

losthighway · Post by **losthighway** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:05 pm

I think the RE20 is definitely a 'cool' kick mic. But I wouldn't call it huge.

Why not use a 414 as your LDC outside? (I don't own one but I assume they would be worth a shot if not needed elsewhere.)

I know it is really boring to hear again, but seriously- the huge kick drum sound comes from the huge sounding kick drum. I got a gorgeous kick drum sound a couple sessions back- dude had an old 60's ludwig. One of those Evans heads on the beater side with the weird foam ring (usually a sign of trouble for me), nothing at all inside (often a good sign) and a thin, but coated front head. No hole. He had everything in tune, but fairly loose. It had that awesome *thwamp* sound that takes a half a second to unfold (if you've ever heard The Casket Lottery- Survival is for Cowards recorded by Ed Rose).

I put a D112 about a foot out just south of the beater, straight at the drum, no off axis stuff. I had to build a doghouse to keep the cymbals out. I was shocked though, one of the best kick sounds I've ever gotten, and I can't take much credit. The dude tuned the drum that way.

If you're messing with tuning, always get someone else to hit it while you stand in front.

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Kick Drum Experiments?

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