Recording guitars is easy right....wtf is my problem then?

[GCMan]

I quick run down of the problem I am having. The band just did a recording session recorded with PT LE and a 002 and things sound fine, not great but not terrible. Normally I am recording with Radar as a front end to PTHD or a Studer 827 and this is what I have become accustom to, but this time it's being done all to a 002 and I can't change that (not my decision). We are starting to do the guitar overdubs now and I can not under any circumstance get a guitar sound that I'm happy with. Comparable guitar tones I am trying to achieve are Black Crowes, Ryan Adams, Neil Young, Wilco, mostly in line with typical alt country.

Here is my gear list:
Universal Audio LA-610
Dan Alexander 1272
Sm57
Sm58
Audix I5
AEA R92
Pro Tools 7.4 with Digi 002

Amps:
Harry Joyce Custom 50 (Hiwatt)
65' Showman
72' Deluxe reverb
Savage Blitz 50
Fender Pro Junior

I'm not using an external clock or converters. That being said I consistently achieving this thinest, shrillest, sterile, lifeless guitar sounds. I'm close micing, distance micing, front and back micing, stereo micing and nothing. Switched inputs, switched 002's, cables, and still nothing I'm happy with.

I can drop a sm57 anywhere on a speaker cab hook it up to a 512 or 1073 and run into a Studer using 456 or 499 and it's damn genius. Recording to Radar take's a little bit more setup and patching but still sounds good. So my question.....wtf is my problem and what do you suggest I do? There has to be people recording decent guitar sounds on here with a stock Digi 002 so what's the secret. Also I'm not a perfectionist or an elitist I just want to it sound recorded similar to what is coming out of the amp. Personal insults are welcomed but please offer advice as well.

[lapsteel]

switch guitar?
switch mic?

What's your exact signal chain? Is it the mic straight into the 002?

[GCMan]

guitars and amps are not the problem. As i posted in my gear list I've used multiple scenarios with the ribbon mic and 1272 pre sounding the best. La-610 and 57 sounding the worst. Distance micing seems to have phase issues even when using one mic which I think are due to crap converters. Ironically an Audix i5 plugged right into a the digi pre's actually yielded the best results for me.

[Artifex]

Sounds like an issue with the room aucostics to me, either where you are tracking or where you are listening.

[lapsteel]

Ironically an Audix i5 plugged right into a the digi pre's actually yielded the best results for me.

That sounds about right.


I guess try doing this with the other mics, if you haven't already.

Maybe double track the guitar track. Maybe add some compression and/or reverb. Maybe plug the guitar through the pre without using an amp.

[darjama]

Why would the converters cause phase issues if you move the mic away? Sounds to me like a room problem. Try moving the amp off the floor and around the room.

[Dakota]

You seem to have all the right fixings w/mics and amps, so maybe that isn't it.

Get scientific, isolate and test your variables.

Hypothesis: It's the room. Bad nodes and reflections.
A) Do the guitar sounds sound good in the room, open air? Walk around with one ear covered, find a place that sounds good to your ear, stick a mic there.
B) Move an amp to any other room or rooms you can reach. Even a hallway or closet. Record. Does whatever is bothering you then sound different?
C) Gobo like crazy to kill any reflections at the guitar amp area, including angling the amp to get rid of floor reflections, and also getting the amp onto a decoupling riser. Can you at least get a decent dry/close sound?

Hypothesis: It's the converters and analog stages and clock of the stock 002, with you being used to better.
A) Borrow or rent any higher end converter that is nice enough to be worth the bother, connect to the 002 via spidif or adat, and remember to clock the 002 to it. Record. Does whatever is bothering you then sound different?

Hypothesis: you are used to what tape contributes.
A) Bring in a tape machine, record to it in parallel w/ the 002, then fly the tape version in and line up. What sounds better?

[drumsound]

Possibly multi-micing to one track would also help.

[Corey Y]

+1 on the room. What's the space like where you're tracking and how do you have the amp set up? It might be where you're listening, but you can rule that out quickly by checking with a good set of headphones you're familiar with.

If you can't solve the problem through changing the orientation of the amp in the room try some treatments. It may not be ideal, but in the past I've resorted to draping packing blankets over cabs, pieces of plywood or anything I could get my hands on and arranging them around the amp to subvert a crappy acoustic situation.

[dsw]

Maybe turn the treble down on the amp?

*knows this is simplistic*
*has keen grasp of the obvious*

[GCMan]

I guess my question should have been: What do you do differently when recording guitars digital instead of analog. Do you take a different approach to your setup, gain staging, loudness of amp, use more distortion or less. Do you compress/EQ on the way in.

I realize room acoustics, guitars, amps, ect....all play a role in the recording. I've recorded guitars in this room on a tascam 4 track that have far greater realism than what I'm getting now.

[darjama]

Check out this page, it gives you the response curves of different analog recorders at 15 and 30 ips. You could try EQing some of the Studer low end bump / upper mid dip onto your guitars and see how that feels:

http://www.endino.com/graphs/

[drumsound]

Check out this page, it gives you the response curves of different analog recorders at 15 and 30 ips. You could try EQing some of the Studer low end bump / upper mid dip onto your guitars and see how that feels:

http://www.endino.com/graphs/

I find those interesting but I believe that Jack states that he was not sure of the alignment on any of those machines. That kind of negates their usefulness if you ask me (which you didn't).

[Rabbit]

I'm not a PT guy but is it possible there is something set in the recording channel on the DAW that's causing problems? What else is in the chain between the mic and A/D? From what you describe I'm thinking something is up besides the room or mic approach.

[darjama]

I find those interesting but I believe that Jack states that he was not sure of the alignment on any of those machines. That kind of negates their usefulness if you ask me (which you didn't).

True, I wouldn't take them as gospel, but even so it's a starting place for someone coming from working with take that's having a hard time capturing similar tones on a digital rig.