I was a christmas present, and the giftee wants a refund.

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NewAndImprov
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I was a christmas present, and the giftee wants a refund.

Post by NewAndImprov » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:50 pm

More than 2 years ago, a woman bought a day of recording at my studio as a gift for her singer/songwriter husband, she paid my day rate, I gave her an invoice and just said to have him book with me. I felt like it was a kind of wierd situation, but she seemed nice, and I know people who know her husband, so I figured it'd be OK.

So he calls me a number of times, I probably have spent several hours on the phone with him total. He kind of picks my brain about how I'm recording, what software/hardware I use, and just seems really like he needs to know every detail of the process. Several times, he books time with me, only to cancel eventually, always for good reasons, he had surgery once, etc. Contact drops off, and I didn't hear from him for probably a year.

So, last week, I finally do hear from him, and now he wants a refund. He just bought a new mac laptop and Logic, and some more stuff, and wants to do it all himself. The problem is, money is really, really tight for me right now (like everybody else, I know) and I really can't afford it. I've told him I'd be glad to help him with his project or even hooking up his gear, whatever, but he says he just wants the money. He even made a rather snide comment about how I should be glad he's not asking for interest.

It's really not that much money, I am very cheap, but right now I am barely getting by and I have to plan out any expenses way in advance now. Plus, I feel kind of steamed that he used the advice I gave him (for free) to decide on what software to get (I use Logic too). I didn't log my phone time with him, but it was substantial, I remember several 30-45 minute conversations. I don't usually charge for phone consulting, and generally believe in sharing what I know, but this situation just has me kind of bummed.

What should I do?

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Post by DrummerMan » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:24 am

That's a sticky situation. I'm not sure what the morally correct thing to do is, but I personally wouldn't be inclined to give him cash back after so long.

Obviously, it would've been best if there was some sort of "no refund after 30 days" clause on the invoice, which I'm assuming there wasn't, but still, c'mon... after 2 years?? And anyway, isn't it his wife's money anyway? Shouldn't she be the one who's asking for and not getting that money back?

I mean, if he still wants to record, by all means, give him the time paid for.


Then again, I'm sucky with this type of stuff, so who knows....
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Post by Gentleman Jim » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:47 am

Here are a few well reasoned arguments you could use:

First, most gift certificates expire after a year or so. My wife and I mutually agreed years ago to stop buying each other gift certificates because one year we each let two expire. You have been more than generous in your willingness to honor the gift certificate for a longer time. Medical conditions may or may not come into play here.

Second, there was the 'professional consulting time' that you gave to him for free, in anticipation of working together on the project as his wife intended. In the absence of that project, would he have expected to consult with you about your business for free? Would he call up an electrician and pick their brain for a few hours prior to buying a set of tools and rewiring his own house? Probably not, but that's the situation he's trying to put together ex post facto.

Third, most gift certificates are not redeemable for cash value. This is because gift certificates, (and the administration of selling them), cost money. The seller anticipates making a profit on the goods or services the recipient obtains with the gift certificate, thus offsetting that cost.

Now that the diplomatic answers are out of the way I'll say what I really think.

It's a gift certificate, not a savings bond. You're not an attorney maintaining a trust account, nor a bank with an escrow. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to think that you took that money and set it aside, never to touch it until the completion of his recording project. How you manage your business' cash flow is your prerogative.

Times are hard all around, and maybe he's just looking under every couch cushion he can find. But frankly that wouldn't sway me if I was in your position. I would come right back and tell him that the money was spent, and that you don't have the surplus cash to just hand over right now. What's he going to do? Hell, I might tell him that I'll pay him what I think I owe him.... in a little over two years.

Your real problem now is that you most likely don't want to record him either. I know I probably wouldn't want to be hanging out with the guy for a day after this episode.

What is your gut feeling on this? If you had the money, would you want to give it to him? Are you afraid of what he's going to say to your mutual friends? Are you concerned about your reputation? Do you think refunding the money more than two years later is fair? If the roles were reversed would you handle this how he is?

WARNING! RIDICULOUS EDITORIALIZING DIATRIBE AHEAD!

I'm from New Jersey, but I lived in Seattle for a few years. I could never get used to the west coast-passive aggressive-hippie attitude where nobody calls anybody out on their crap because they don't want to be the heavy. People would rather go around harboring all this resentment than just tell someone what a douche they were and get over it.

Here's my prediction: This situation will end only when you call this guy out and shut it down. If you wait for him to unilaterally come to the realization that he's an idiot you're going to be having the refund conversation with him for the next six months to a year, because in the absence of people telling him what everybody knows, he's been allowed to pull this routine, or one just like it, a thousand times. He's the guy who figured out that he could 'buy' a suit and pair of shoes for his brother's wedding and then return them after, with scuffed heels and cake on the lapel. He's the guy who asks if refills are free, then tips $1 on a $12 ticket after five diet cokes. He's the guy who doesn't miss the opportunity to gleefully mention that he's passed by the store every day for the last 4 years, but has never come in before - as he's stocking up on 60% off merchandise during the Going Out Of Business Sale.

He's an a-hole. How you handle it is for you to determine.

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Post by sears » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:16 am

He wants to return a partially used Christmas gift after two years? Are you Costco?

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Post by standup » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:26 am

How about "I can't give a refund after this much time BUT if you don't need studio time I'll show up at your place and put the hours toward getting your Logic setup running, the room and monitors setup as best they can in a home situation, and showing you which end of the microphone you plug the cord into..."

I know, he probably has some knowledge already, but you should offer to consult with him on his setup.

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Post by casey campbell » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:32 am

yup, there is some good advice flowing here so far.

the only thing i have to add is that the truth is, is that he is in a tight spot, and he wants money.

i would hold his feet to the fire and say that the gift certificate was already purchased and that it was for studio time....then i would ask him what time he'd like to come in for tracking.

tell him you'll honor the certificate.

i would also just be honest with the guy and tell him you have no money, but that you are still wiling to honor the recording time he's already purchased. i would do this in person over coffee. not over the phone.

i would also remind him that the certificate was purchased over 2 years ago, and that he is the one who has cancelled numerous times, which in turn has caused you to lose money because you could have booked that time for someone else.

i really think you are the nice guy here, and that he just needs money.

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Post by rwc » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:57 am

In this case, I would take the brooklyn landlord mentality

"I love you, you're my friend, fuck you, give me my money"

I've been in similar situations. You can be very nice while still establishing how ridiculous it is to ask for money back after 2 years after he consulted with you for 45 minutes on how to get his own setup.

This way it's not like you're being mean. It's that you're being "crazy", or maybe you'll even get him to realize how ridiculous he is being. If you act at all as if this is something you would allow, it makes him feel less ridiculous for asking. If you want to keep the money, you have to put him in a position from the get go where he feels ridiculous for asking.

I'm not saying be mean. I'm saying respond in the manner that someone in the local scottrade office would to me if I said "this stock went down, give me my money back!"
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Post by decocco » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:37 am

NO WAY. Stick to your guns. He's trying to take advantage of you. Stay cool, but keep firm in your position.
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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:43 am

Maybe you could let him transfer it to some friend? Or somebody he finds on Craigslist? (eww)

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Post by CurtZHP » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:25 am

Gentleman Jim wrote:Here are a few well reasoned arguments you could use:

First, most gift certificates expire after a year or so. My wife and I mutually agreed years ago to stop buying each other gift certificates because one year we each let two expire. You have been more than generous in your willingness to honor the gift certificate for a longer time. Medical conditions may or may not come into play here.

Second, there was the 'professional consulting time' that you gave to him for free, in anticipation of working together on the project as his wife intended. In the absence of that project, would he have expected to consult with you about your business for free? Would he call up an electrician and pick their brain for a few hours prior to buying a set of tools and rewiring his own house? Probably not, but that's the situation he's trying to put together ex post facto.

Third, most gift certificates are not redeemable for cash value. This is because gift certificates, (and the administration of selling them), cost money. The seller anticipates making a profit on the goods or services the recipient obtains with the gift certificate, thus offsetting that cost.

Now that the diplomatic answers are out of the way I'll say what I really think.

It's a gift certificate, not a savings bond. You're not an attorney maintaining a trust account, nor a bank with an escrow. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to think that you took that money and set it aside, never to touch it until the completion of his recording project. How you manage your business' cash flow is your prerogative.

Times are hard all around, and maybe he's just looking under every couch cushion he can find. But frankly that wouldn't sway me if I was in your position. I would come right back and tell him that the money was spent, and that you don't have the surplus cash to just hand over right now. What's he going to do? Hell, I might tell him that I'll pay him what I think I owe him.... in a little over two years.

Your real problem now is that you most likely don't want to record him either. I know I probably wouldn't want to be hanging out with the guy for a day after this episode.

What is your gut feeling on this? If you had the money, would you want to give it to him? Are you afraid of what he's going to say to your mutual friends? Are you concerned about your reputation? Do you think refunding the money more than two years later is fair? If the roles were reversed would you handle this how he is?

WARNING! RIDICULOUS EDITORIALIZING DIATRIBE AHEAD!

I'm from New Jersey, but I lived in Seattle for a few years. I could never get used to the west coast-passive aggressive-hippie attitude where nobody calls anybody out on their crap because they don't want to be the heavy. People would rather go around harboring all this resentment than just tell someone what a douche they were and get over it.

Here's my prediction: This situation will end only when you call this guy out and shut it down. If you wait for him to unilaterally come to the realization that he's an idiot you're going to be having the refund conversation with him for the next six months to a year, because in the absence of people telling him what everybody knows, he's been allowed to pull this routine, or one just like it, a thousand times. He's the guy who figured out that he could 'buy' a suit and pair of shoes for his brother's wedding and then return them after, with scuffed heels and cake on the lapel. He's the guy who asks if refills are free, then tips $1 on a $12 ticket after five diet cokes. He's the guy who doesn't miss the opportunity to gleefully mention that he's passed by the store every day for the last 4 years, but has never come in before - as he's stocking up on 60% off merchandise during the Going Out Of Business Sale.

He's an a-hole. How you handle it is for you to determine.

+100,000,000,000

(Including the RIDICULOUS EDITORIALIZING DIATRIBE. Now you know why the music from that part of the country is so depressing.)

As for how bad this guy needs the money, that's not your problem. You needed the money too, and were perfectly willing to work for it, unlike this piker.
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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:35 am

Are you supposed to add more tip every time a server brings you another free refill? I had never thought about that permutation of tipping 101.

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Post by DrummerMan » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:28 am

;ivlunsdystf wrote:Are you supposed to add more tip every time a server brings you another free refill? I had never thought about that permutation of tipping 101.
Back when I was still in college, Teddy's in Williamsburg had $1 pints of Sierra Nevada on tap, saturdays from 1 - 4pm. We were poor and would roll in with, like, $5 each, which would buy us each 4 beers and a $1 tip. THIS WAS A FUCKED UP THING TO DO. Our rationale at the time was that $1 is, like 25% tip on 4 bucks, but the fact is that the waiter or bartender was doing the exact same amount of work they would've been doing if the beers were $5 each. If that was now, I'd be tipping $1 per beer no matter how cheap they are. It's like even when I'm playing a show and I'm getting free drink tickets, I still always tip.


Of course, when we're talking about soda during the course of dinner, that might not be the exact same thing. To me it's kind of like, if I'm making them do 4 times as much work as I would've been tipping them on for ONE thing, then I should be tipping them four times as much, or somewhere's about there. Most people who make tips make the majority of there income from those tips, so regardless of the establishment's refill policy, I try to tip based on the service that person is actually providing. Of course, if they're just being an ass...



As for this:

Maybe you could let him transfer it to some friend? Or somebody he finds on Craigslist? (eww)
I thought about this when I first read the thread, but I think it would just open up the door to some more frustrating interactions. Why should some dude on Craigslist pay this douchebag to record in your studio. That's a potential real customer that, in theory, could just be paying you directly.

It would also just justify his ridiculous claim to begin with, which, IMO, needs to avoided at all cost.
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Post by Brett Siler » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:44 am

a big word up to what Gentlemen Jim had to say. It's been 2 fucking years. His gift certificate has expired, end of situation.

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Post by Corey Y » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:32 pm

Be a hard ass. If you want to be the nice guy everyone likes when it comes to business (not being an engineer), be happy being poor and fucked over often.

I'm not on that level for recording, but I do own a business. I've had people receive deliveries of custom made products on time, as ordered, contracts signed and tell me they want a refund because they changed their mind and want something different. I tell them sorry to hear that, here's the invoice, here's your signature on the contract where it says NO REFUNDS and if it's damaged or defective I will replace it under warranty. Then I tell them if they want to place another order for whatever they've changed their mind to I'll give them a good discount to help them out.

I've had customers shake my hand and smile and hand me an empty sealed envelope when paying their bill, I've had large businesses tell me they're over budget and one thing is wrong with their order (that's not) and so they're just not going to pay but keep the product and I can try to sue them if I want. Almost all these people do this sort of thing seeing if they can get away with it. I don't scream, I don't yell, I just read them the paperwork and show them their signature and be the asshole that demands to get paid for what's been agreed upon. There are people out there who are just pricks and will make your life hell trying not to pay a bill or get something for free out of you, so you have to know when to pick your battles, but I'd pick this one in your case. Handle it as diplomatically as you feel comfortable with, but you made a sale and the guy is trying to get is jerking you around.

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Post by austingreen » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:39 pm

Gentleman Jim wrote:First, most gift certificates expire after a year or so
Depending on the state that is not true, California has a law that Gift Certificates can not have an expiration date. And I think it can always be redeemed for cash, at least in CA.

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