Best way to record a live show to be mixed later?

[jgimbel]

I did a lot of searching on here and didn't find much that helped, so if I'm missing something feel free to point me in that direction! I put out an album a little over two months ago, and a filmmaker friend of mine is looking for something to shoot. We're talking about doing a live performance of the album for a very small audience and making a DVD of it. On the album I play and sing everything myself, so I'll be a little out of my normal zone by having some friends of mine back me up. I do a lot of recording, so I've got that knowledge helping, but what I'm looking to do is play the show, but record it in a way that I could mix it all later to sound as good as possible. However, I'm relatively limited, and not sure how I should go about this.

Here's my equipment:

When I normally record, I go through my Firestudio Project into my PC (though it also works fine with my Macbook Pro, so I could use either of them).

I've also got an old Boss BR864, which was my upgrade from the BR532 that I used for the first few years of recording before selling. I believe this can record two tracks simultaneously, though it has 8 separate tracks.

Mics (humble collection, but I get by fine):
SM57
MXL 992 (LDC, I usually use it on vocals)
MXL 990
MXL 603S (x2) (wide cardioid SDCs with a wide freq. response)
MXL 4000 (LDC with omni, fig. 8, and cardioid)
MXL 991 (SDC)
AKG D112
Old Nady drum mic kit (DM70 - decent on toms, DM80 - "BD" mic that's not bad on floor tom)
2 cheap Nady dynamic mics that I've surprisingly had decent results with on guitar amps, though I used them for vocals when I first started.

The performance will mostly be 2 electric guitars, bass, drums, and one singer. One song is keyboard based, and one song is acoustic guitar with one singer.

So I don't have a ton of mics to work with, but I think I can make do. I was thinking of maybe micing the drums with a recorderman or glyn johns setup, so I'm not too worried about using a ton of the mics on drums. I figure this should work fine for recording, though I don't think using those mics through the FOH would turn out too well.

One idea I had (which may or may not be ridiculous) is to have everything miced for the show, but then put up a second set of mics to be recorded and and mixed later. I thought I could try to get something to split the bass before it goes to the amp, so I could take the bass direct, as well as have it go into the bass amp. I could put up one of the Nady mics for vocals for the show, and possibly put up a condenser as well to take for recording. For acoustic guitar I'd probably just use the guitar's output live and put up a mic for the recording.

Another idea I had was to play in a place that's small enough so the amps wouldn't need micing for the show. That way I could put mics on the amps just to be recorded.

I know a bit about live sound, though I don't know if we'll have a nice big board to just take the outs and record (that would be ideal?). I met a guy who does sound today so it's a possibility, though if I have outs for everything, I'm not sure what the best way to record them all would be. I could take up to 8 channels from the Firestudio Project, and two more into the BR864, maybe that would be fine.

So I'm definitely a bit unorganized with my thoughts about this at the moment (as you can see), but I've got time to think about this as it's no one else's plan but mine right now! I have a strong feeling I'm leaving out a good bit of vital info, so feel free to give me a verbal smack to the head.

I appreciate suggestions about this. I guess the thing more important to me in this, if I'd have to lean towards one, would be the DVD. The show will be small, mostly friends and family I'm willing to bet, so there's not a ton of pressure on this. I'm experienced with and absolutely love recording, but this is a whole new monster.

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

If you will be mixing this later, then treat it as you would a live mutlitrack session, and try to record as much as possible with as many mics as possible.

Mixing to video is not exactly the same as making a record, in that you kinda want to mix to the video, so when a closeup of something happens, you have the option of making that instruments ever so slightly louder, so the audience follows the story.

Or not... so many videos just put a stereo mix that is static.

Cheers

[ott0bot]

I'd agree with the previous comment and add a few things. I'd probably mic the way you would a live performance and get a feed from the board through the bus, auxs or direct outs. If you want to submix the drums you can, but I'd try to do a simple set up and capture as much as possible with the overheads. You could also use isolated splits from the stage and avoid the board on route to your DAW.

With the firestudio you only have 8 inputs. You may want to get all you're essential tracks into your DAW and you could alsoe use the Boss recorder to get a stereo mix of the board. You could also use it for the guitar and keys, or two fill mics. If don't use the Boss for the acoustic & keys you are going to to have to mute the tracks and switch cables on the elec/acoustic and key changes or have your live sound guy re route the signal to your DAW.

Also for a live performance you'll have trouble using the LDC's as vocal mics. Feedback will destroy your recording if you are using them to go to the PA system as well. They'd be ok if used in addition to a live mic and only monitored on the recording, but you'll probably get a ton of bleed from the drums and guitars.

so lets break it down:

Firestudio
track 1: kick
track 2: snare
track 3: oh l (or mono oh)
track 4: oh r (or bass DI)
track 5: Bass
track 6: gtr 1
track 7: gtr 2 (then switch to acoustic gtr & keys)
track 8: Vocals

Boss
1-2: Stereo mix from board
or
1: acoustic guitar
2: keys
or
1:extra vocal mic
2:crowd mic?

Mic choice is up to you...but use dymanics on everything you can....except on the drum overheads is my suggestion.

Also, make sure your DAW and the boss recorder are set to the same sample rate to make importing them into your DAW easier. If you're making audio for DVD they use between 48k-192k at 24 bit. Most the stuff I've done I used 48/24.

Thats my suggestion, hope it helps.

[jgimbel]

Hey, thanks to both of you for your replies. Noeqplease, I hadn't thought of doing that, making parts a hair louder when the camera is on them...I think if done right it could definitely add a little more interest to the whole thing, having the video actually interact with the sound, as opposed to just having a static mix alongside video.

ott0bot, I think that sounds like exactly what I'll do. Thanks for such a thorough response. I think I'll probably end up using the Boss for crowd mic(s). I might try to pick up some other cheap recorder, something 2 or 4 track and between that and the boss get crowd mics in one and the stereo board outs in the other.

More input is definitely appreciate from anyone of course but that's a big help!

[ott0bot]

cool...be sure to share the results however you decide to do it!

[grumpysoundguy]

i think this will all depend on the room you are playing. is this a private room or a public venue?

and one more thing i want to clarify, will you be using only the gear you currently own plus the possibility of using house gear(if playing a public venue) or also considering adding/upgrading yr setup?

either way i think you need at least one more person. if yr on yr own, it will take hours to get yr stage levels, get the house pa levels, and get the recording levels. and once yr actually performing the tracking will go unmonitored. performance dynamics might track poorly(distortion, lost signal) or not track at all(computer failure?)

if yr interested in having an additional engineer record, mix or both, i might be able to help. am i correct that you are from philadelphia? i'm from the suburbs and do a lot of work in the city.
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i've tried a couple different methods and found a great way to get a nice clear recording that is way more flattering than a handheld stereo recorder or a copy of the house mix yet requires minimal soundcheck and setup time.

i use a portable multitrack(yamaha aw1600) so i can travel lightly and mix the band live and send 8 tracks to disk at the same time. i combine individual channels from the live console, group mixes from the live console, room mics, and stage mics, depending on the instrumentation of the band.

the advantages are:

-8 tracks for the average rock band is more than plenty. plus i get to mix/master them later. while mixing the live set i'm making sure that preamps are hot/clean enough to be used for the both the house mix and the multitrack.

-the FOH/monitor board is usually nice enough to get good signals to the multitrack without having to bring external pres.

-i can use all the house mics if they're industry standard or above. i add a room mic and maybe a stage mic or two but that's it. there's very minimal time and space taken up by equipment used only for recording. i can set up the multitrack and room mic in 15-20 minutes. i can tear down in the same amount of time. the multitrack is the size of a medium computer monitor. i can have the house engineer set up the instrument mics on stage to save time. and if i really need a mic in a certain place i can move it since i'll be mixing the set and it won't affect the house engineer's method.

-i can take advantage of the house outboard gear as needed(or my own if there's no/little house gear) when i first tried this i thought clean, uncompressed tracks were necessary but later found that i often ended up compressing the tracks the same way on the recording. i save time recording with the live compression(less billing hours!) sometimes the compression might be a little more than i would put on a 'studio' performance but i embrace it. it forces me to fix it as it was. the recording actually benefits. it achieves a more authentic live feel.

-while mixing the live set i'm making sure that preamps are hot/clean enough to be used for both the house mix and the multitrack. i can still give my full attention to a good live mix while making sure the recording is running properly. should something go wrong with live/recording/both i can fix it all at the same time. a soundcheck and/or rehearsal with the band is useful but not necessary. i only need
20-30 minutes for soundcheck(which includes FOH and recording or monitors/recording or all three). and if a linecheck is all the time available, let the good times roll!

i usually meet clients by word of mouth so i haven't posted any results but i guess i can make up a myspace page or something. maybe i'll work on it over the weekend.