A question from a young engineer in regard to finding work

Cryonicsound · Post by **Cryonicsound** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:49 pm

Back in 2007, I graduated college and moved to a new area. During this time, I have done only a few albums, mainly for friends, but have found it hard to get other clients. I feel that one of my disadvantages is not having a location to record at. After all, why should someone rent studio time with a relatively unproven outside engineer when they can pay similar for the house engineer that knows the facility more intimately? The one thing I do have going for me is that I can record on site.

What I have considered doing is offering to record college jazz combos for rather cheap on location (something like $50 for 3-4 hours of tracking plus mixing). My thought is that I do need to sharpen my chops, as I haven't really had a lot of volume the past two years. I would be able to get my face out there a bit more, as well as allow me a bit more wiggle room for experimentation. I have also considered offering house of worship music directors a gratis stereo recording to accomplish the similar.

I know I have heard rants on young bloods undercutting the established pros, but this seems like a way to break through the catch 22 needing to be known to do good work, but having little good work to be known by. Any thoughts?

AndyHutchinson · Post by **AndyHutchinson** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:13 pm

Hi,
This isn't probably the answer you're looking for, just a commiseration. I'm in the same place. Since graduating school last year, I've been freelancing, doing some work in a studio, and applying to internships at big studios. I've been wrestling with that same subject for a while. Everyone started small; as an intern/tape op, and I'm more than willing to do that, but, the system has changed. This was a tough business to get into before the industry went into decline, followed by the entire global economy. My advice, and I'm sure I'll get plenty of comments on this, is to hustle any way you can. Work for free, or, if you're lucky, cheaper than those around you. Can anyone honestly say they wouldn't do the same? I think that we can all agree that what we need to work on is getting people to buy music and to record music with people with good ears, and a good understanding of music. Getting people to buy something they can get for free and getting people to come to a studio when they think they can do it themselves is an uphill battle to say the least. Best of luck to you, my friend

rwc · Post by **rwc** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:27 pm

Working dirt cheap or for free isn't the answer.

Put yourself in situations where people want to work for you. Whether you're dirt cheap or relatively regular priced won't matter.

It's not like working for free makes you a no brainer. There are tons of people who would do it for free.

Cryonicsound · Post by **Cryonicsound** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:24 pm

rwc wrote:Working dirt cheap or for free isn't the answer.

Put yourself in situations where people want to work for you. Whether you're dirt cheap or relatively regular priced won't matter.

It's not like working for free makes you a no brainer. There are tons of people who would do it for free.

If I may turn it around, would you mind if I asked you to describe a situation which you were able to place yourself in one of the said situations?

chris harris · Post by **chris harris** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:35 am

I put myself in one of those situations by picking up a live sound gig here in town. I ran house sound at a local venue for about 3 years. I worked about 4 - 6 nights per week. I met almost every local band in my area. And, they all came to really trust me with their sound. By doing this, I was also able to see which bands were the real deal. If you can make a few records with the best local bands that other people look up to and respect, it can easily lead to lots of work. And, if you do a great job for them, then the new work starts to snowball.

chris harris · Post by **chris harris** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:36 am

It's not about how cheap you are. It's about earning trust and doing a good job, regardless of the cost.

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:13 am

do good work, record some cool records in your bedroom and in practices spaces with whatever gear you can, pick up a part time intern position, and keep working your ass off and buy gear whenever you can afford to, and keep working your ass off and go meet bands at clubs and work your ass off and then find a partner and lease a commercial space and work your ass off building out the space, and the record bands in your space and work your ass off making the best records you can, and work your ass off so you can afford to buy more gear.

then you should be fine.

john

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:24 am

Don't work for peanuts! It doesn't matter that you aren't Bob Clearmountain. Surely you have something of value to offer people. Working for super cheap or free will land you gigs with the biggest jokers of all time. If you are working with crappy/douchey musicians you aren't really getting any decent experience at all. You will hone your craft MUCH more sharply by working with people who are serious about what they do. People looking to make good recordings know that you have to pay. Working for tiny amounts of money with goofball/cheapskate musicians will leave you feeling unfulfilled.

For me, the best method of getting local gigs is just meeting musicians. Find people whose music you like and talk to them. Introduce yourself to every studio owner in your area, let them know you are available if they ever need any help. Make friends. Good luck!

rwc · Post by **rwc** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:59 am

Cryonicsound wrote:
rwc wrote:Working dirt cheap or for free isn't the answer.

Put yourself in situations where people want to work for you. Whether you're dirt cheap or relatively regular priced won't matter.

It's not like working for free makes you a no brainer. There are tons of people who would do it for free.
If I may turn it around, would you mind if I asked you to describe a situation which you were able to place yourself in one of the said situations?

jump into the deep end of the music community. go to shows. meet people.

This comes easy to me because most people I meet think I'm out of my mind. I leave an impression. For the first 17 years of my life, this was for the worse, but it has been great now.

just working at a studio I used to intern at with the door half open to keep ventilation going in the summer allowed people to see in if they peeked, and it spiked curiousity. A short conversation thereafter and I had someone telling everyone I was the bomb. I wasn't the bomb(or maybe I was), but I was now trustworthy, and that's all you need

Jon~T · Post by **Jon~T** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:29 pm

I'm in the same situation, been out of school for a few years, I feel like I've learned as much as I can on my own now I need to start DOING SOMETHING.

I can't record drums or loud guitars at my place (apartment) but it's fine for mixing and production.
Once my business cards arrive I'm gonna be passing them out and getting my summer schedule booked.

Good luck to you.

Scodiddly · Post by **Scodiddly** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:42 pm

Don't turn your nose up at doing live sound. It's more physical work, but it's also a great way to really learn some stuff about combat audio, making stuff work, etc. And at the end of the evening when you pack up, you're done and you get paid.

Plus there's the all-important "networking" part of the deal, if you're into that sort of thing.

kingtoad · Post by **kingtoad** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:21 am

Scodiddly wrote:Don't turn your nose up at doing live sound. It's more physical work, but it's also a great way to really learn some stuff about combat audio, making stuff work, etc. And at the end of the evening when you pack up, you're done and you get paid.

Plus there's the all-important "networking" part of the deal, if you're into that sort of thing.

+1

You'll really improve your frequency recognition as well. No one likes feedback/nasty resonances and learning to get rid of them makes a lot of things that once took a few minutes of EQ sweeping in the studio take a few seconds as they become second nature.

Gentleman Jim · Post by **Gentleman Jim** » Sun May 03, 2009 10:38 am

another +1 for what Scodiddly said.

Other thoughts: Work the location recording angle. There are plenty of bands who would prefer to record in their own space, or someplace they're familiar with, than to be uncomfortable in a studio. Studios can seem like really lame places if you've had bad experiences in the past, or if the local studios are all run by people who don't know anything about the kind of music you're doing.

If you're thinking of targeting college jazz combos, why not keep your eyes open for jazz festivals or concert series that are coming up this summer? You could contact the people running them and either offer to record for them, or ask if you could ask if you could contact the bands to offer to record them. This would require coordinating with the live sound crew, so be prepared to prove that you're competent and not just a nuisance; because make no mistake about it, the first impression of the live sound crew will be that you're a nuisance.

It might be worth looking into finding your equivalent in a small video crew. That way you could offer a complete live recording package to bands.

I do sound one night a week at a local club and I offer live multitrack recordings to the bands for cheap. My thinking is that I'm going to be there anyway, so why not do a couple extra hours work setting up and tearing down if it means a few extra bucks in my pocket? I post the raw tracks to a site for the bands to download, and they can mix the set themselves. If two bands a night say yes then it's worthwhile.

You may find it useful to offer your services to one or two bands for free or next to nothing to build up a demo reel. Be honest and upfront with them about it. If you would like to ultimately charge X dollars an hour, always keep that in mind as your price. Approach the biggest, best band you can find and tell them that you're getting something started and you would like to record and mix them for free to use as a demo. What's in it for them? Free recording, your mixes to do with what they want, and the raw tracks in case they'd like to remix them later. What's in it for you? The use of a couple of those mixes. The reasons you want to go to the biggest, best band you can find are credibility and quality. A smaller band will be more impressed that you've worked with the bigger band than the other way around; thus credibility. And a better band will probably give a better performance and will probably have better sounding gear; thus quality.

Finally, your competition isn't studios, and studios' competition isn't you. You offer different services than a studio, you have advantages and disadvantages when compared to a studio. The competition to both you and a studio is Guitar Center. I don't mean this as a typical Guitar-Center-is-evil-and-every-one-of-their-employees-is-stupid rant, I mean that you will have to find a way to be part of the recording/mixing process while accepting that there will be times when the musicians choose to take things in a DIY direction. This has little if anything to do with your abilities or shaving a few dollars off your hourly rate.

norsehorse · Post by **norsehorse** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:19 pm

Greetings from VA.

If you are targeting the collegiate scene, be prepared to encounter a lot of people with very little money and potentially little appreciation for audiophile sound. Here's the catch: any group that is really serious about recording is going to go to a real studio and any group that isn't is just going to try it themselves instead of paying you (especially if the college has it's own studio or audiolab!). You will really have to focus on inserting yourself into the scene - and don't expect that a few business cards and fliers will turn your life around. The students will have to get to know you and you will have to plant a seed in their mind about making a good recording. It might only flurish a year later.

My recommendation: ignore the rants about young-bloods undercutting pros. Until people are coming to you because of your reputation, you need to focus on doing more recordings with friends (and the musical circles you already run in) and trying to record with anyone whose music you can stand. Meet people, create art, enjoy, and build a reputation. Oh, and find a professional who is already doing what you want to be doing and see if you can work with them.

Cheers.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:13 pm

join a band - or better yet join 5.

play tons - meet lots of bands - record rehearsals - shows - demos. eventually - albums.

i think it's better to be working a bunch for next to nothing and gaining experience - atleast initially - than not working and holding out for more $. there are so many fundamental basics that you got to work out and learn - by doing - that it is essential to practice as much as possible and hone your craft for a few years.

my 2 cents.

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A question from a young engineer in regard to finding work

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