guitar cabinets: remarkably different?

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jaguarundi
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Post by jaguarundi » Mon May 04, 2009 12:27 pm

Gentleman Jim wrote:
Have you considered going the rack mounted preamp/power amp route? In terms of sheer stupid volume I don't think you can top that.
hmmm never heard of that, how do these things work?

so a couple of you are saying that getting a cab with say 2 good 12"s is as loud as one with 4 12"s, is that really true? does it depend on the wattage of the speakers your comparing, I mean say they are the same speakers with the same wattage, wouldn't the 4x12 be louder? and also that a good twin would really be as loud or louder than one of these with a showman or a bassman, that's true also? this is all new territory for me so I really appreciate your opinions, thanks again.

as for the philosophical debate about the volume, I hear you man, I don't like getting my ears blown out at concerts either, but we are talking rock concerts here, and that's why I wear earplugs both in the crowd AND onstage, which is partly why I need some extra volume or else I really can't hear what I'm playing.

also, as for the avatars, they look rad but I probably only have, at most, a grand to spend on this amp, so I guess if it would depend on if I could find a head for cheap enough to afford one of those. originally i was hoping to only spend about $200 at most on a used cab but, if necessary, I'll rethink that.
Last edited by jaguarundi on Mon May 04, 2009 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RefD
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Post by RefD » Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 pm

instrument preamp into a power amp into one or more speaker cabinets.

i was guilty of that for awhile in the 80s and early 90s.

good for making your trousers flap from the transients as well as killing small animals and the less resilient types of insect life.

*turns off hearing aid*
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Post by chris harris » Mon May 04, 2009 12:45 pm

jaguarundi wrote:so a couple of you are saying that getting a cab with say 2 good 15"s is as loud as one with 4 12"s, is that really true?
no. 2 good 12" speakers.... not 15" speakers.
jaguarundi wrote:and also that a good twin would really be as loud or louder than one of these with a showman or a bassman, that's true also?
yes.

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jaguarundi
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Post by jaguarundi » Mon May 04, 2009 12:51 pm

ok, so which breed of twin would be the loudest and cleanest of all? would you base that purely on wattage or are there other factors that play into that?

also, would putting said twin on a chair make it even more audible for said guitarist if it came to that?

chovie d
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Post by chovie d » Mon May 04, 2009 12:51 pm

jaguarundi wrote:
Gentleman Jim wrote:
Have you considered going the rack mounted preamp/power amp route? In terms of sheer stupid volume I don't think you can top that.
hmmm never heard of that, how do these things work?

so a couple of you are saying that getting a cab with say 2 good 15"s is as loud as one with 4 12"s, is that really true? and also that a good twin would really be as loud or louder than one of these with a showman or a bassman, that's true also? this is all new territory for me so I really appreciate your opinions, thanks again.
no not 2x15...2x12. for the most part they are as loud as a 4x12.
The twin is a LOUD amp. I dont know about the new ones, but the silverface twin is nut crushingly loud. Its also spine bendingly heavy. The showman is the twin in head form thus easier on my back. at 85 watts I cannot stand to be near it when the volume is over 5...it more power than I will ever need.

If you insist on even mor power than a twin or showman, I would highly suggest the ultralinear silverface twin or bassman 130. These were 130 watts and could drop an elephant at 100 yards. They will curdle your milk.
I still see em for fairly cheap. Musicman 130HD head is another loud clean sleeper for cheap.

For cabs a 2x12 is basically as loud as a 4x12. a twin combo is as loud as a 2x12.
so yes, a twin is a loud amp

on fenders in general, i find vintage to be a better deal than reissue.
usually cheaper AND better built better sounding.
I love fender amplifiers
me make purty musick!

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Post by Trick Fall » Mon May 04, 2009 4:06 pm

Gentleman Jim wrote:
Lastly, what is the name of this band? If your drummer is so loud that you require an amp with that much headroom I want to make sure I don't mistakenly come and see you. Seriously, if you need that much volume and you're not playing arenas, it's abusive.

+1

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Mon May 04, 2009 6:28 pm

Go get 2 50 watt light bulbs and 4 25 watt light bulbs. Plug them in, with the 2 50's together on one side and the 4 25's together on the other. Which group is brighter? How much brighter?

I think that 2 vs 4 of the same exact speaker, if you power the 4 with more watts it'll be louder, but not as louder as you think. Try the above experiment with 2 50 watt bulbs and 4 50 watt bulbs.

4 speakers will almost always have a "thicker" sound. But again, you've got the law of diminishing returns. Also, sometimes "thicker" isn't better if you're trying to carve out some sonic landscape for yourself.

About the twin thing. I'm a loud drummer, and I'm no freakin' match for a cranked twin. I once had this guy set his twin up to the left of my hihat aimed right at me for a gig. I couldn't hear my snare drum right in front of me. I've kindof hated twins ever since. I'm absolutely positive the thing wasn't cranked past 5 on any channel either.
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jaguarundi
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Post by jaguarundi » Tue May 05, 2009 10:56 am

Snarl 12/8 wrote:Go get 2 50 watt light bulbs and 4 25 watt light bulbs. Plug them in, with the 2 50's together on one side and the 4 25's together on the other. Which group is brighter? How much brighter?

I think that 2 vs 4 of the same exact speaker, if you power the 4 with more watts it'll be louder, but not as louder as you think. Try the above experiment with 2 50 watt bulbs and 4 50 watt bulbs.

4 speakers will almost always have a "thicker" sound. But again, you've got the law of diminishing returns. Also, sometimes "thicker" isn't better if you're trying to carve out some sonic landscape for yourself.

About the twin thing. I'm a loud drummer, and I'm no freakin' match for a cranked twin. I once had this guy set his twin up to the left of my hihat aimed right at me for a gig. I couldn't hear my snare drum right in front of me. I've kindof hated twins ever since. I'm absolutely positive the thing wasn't cranked past 5 on any channel either.

cool, thanks for the analogy, that makes sense. the twin i tried was one of the new '65 reissues, maybe it was screwed up. a 135w ultra linear one I'm sure would have been a bit louder. just have to decide whether I want to put my back on the chopping board. I remember a while back a few Opers recommended the Ampeg V4/V2's also as a comparable and loud setup to the Fenders so I'm keeping my eyes peeled for one of those suckers too in addition to a Bassman 130 as mentioned above.

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Try the above experiment with different materials arranged behind the lightbulbs. Some reflective, some slightly reflective, some black, some white, concave, convex etc., and you'll have your cab analogy too. Different materials and designs will help the speakers project, sound thick, sound thin, be dark, bright, etc.
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trodden
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Post by trodden » Tue May 05, 2009 7:20 pm

posters with the avatar 2X12's, what speakers do you have in them? anyone do the combo of the vintage 30 and the G12H? that might be cool, but annoying when it comes down to "which speaker does the sound person mic?"

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Post by RefD » Tue May 05, 2009 8:34 pm

for a 4x12, i would got vintage 30s in the top half and greenbacks in the bottom half.

2x12 would depend on whether it's open or closed back.

i know this isn't really answering properly, but i just had to chime in. :)

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Post by UXB » Tue May 05, 2009 8:42 pm

Echoing others' sentiments, yes the cabinet makes a huge difference. IMO you shouldn't try to categorize them by sheer volume. Each cabinet will have a very different tone based on not just the speakers and how many, but the air cavity, closed back vs open, even the glue in the surround of the speaker. All this and no mention of the micing technique!

Part of the sound of a Marshall 4x12 is the crappy construction, that it passively resonates so much, giving you the throaty "woof", and even though you hear it, chances are your mic will not pick it up. Once we put a u87 on the back of the closed cab in omni, and tweaked it until it got that "oomph".

I mostly use single 15", 12", 10" and even 8" cabs and they usually sit better in the mix for me. Just be forewarned that all these elements sound very different and its usefulness will depend on the sound of the whole system (guitar+amp+cab together), and not the sum of the parts. I wonder if the guitar tones of the 80's were so cheese grater awful because you could mix and match each element so much, it was hard to find which component was culpable for messing everything up!

Best,
H

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trodden
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Post by trodden » Tue May 05, 2009 9:12 pm

RefD wrote:for a 4x12, i would got vintage 30s in the top half and greenbacks in the bottom half.

2x12 would depend on whether it's open or closed back.

i know this isn't really answering properly, but i just had to chime in. :)

*returns to STFU mode*
Closed back.

Just AB'd my questionable "marshal" 4X12 with my roommate's Genz Benz 2X12 G flex. damn the genz benz had a lot of punch in the low end.. something was wierd with the mids, but i think i may have liked the 2x12 more.. It definitely was just as loud!

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Post by thecheat » Tue May 05, 2009 9:15 pm

Very Breifly,
I am the proud owner of a 1969 Silverface Twin Reverb.

It is the loudest amp ever made. I even shortloaded it to only two power tubes. it is unbeleiveably loud, even at only half the wattage. i promise it, with almost any cab, will make your bandmates cry. Which may be what you are looking for. we dont record with it anywhere past 2 or 3

Chris
"It's like Tom Jones Gargling a Hammer."
http://www.alpacaranchrecording.com

RefD
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Post by RefD » Tue May 05, 2009 9:22 pm

trodden wrote:
RefD wrote:for a 4x12, i would got vintage 30s in the top half and greenbacks in the bottom half.

2x12 would depend on whether it's open or closed back.

i know this isn't really answering properly, but i just had to chime in. :)

*returns to STFU mode*
Closed back.

Just AB'd my questionable "marshal" 4X12 with my roommate's Genz Benz 2X12 G flex. damn the genz benz had a lot of punch in the low end.. something was wierd with the mids, but i think i may have liked the 2x12 more.. It definitely was just as loud!
i've been using an SLM sealed-back 2x12" since 1988 and it's been pretty solid.

worth noting: it seems that sealed cabs with dampening material inside are a bit more focused and less resonant.

also, fewer speakers often equals more detail in the mids and less weirdness in the top end.
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