guitar cabinets: remarkably different?

jaguarundi · Post by **jaguarundi** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:09 pm

I'm working on putting together a half stack as a live guitar rig, not really for studio stuff so super OCD audiophile tone analysis isn't really what I'm interested in here. I am looking into getting a Fender head (bassman 100 or dual showman probably) and a 4x12 cab. am trying to keep it affordable, checking stuff out on craigslist and am wondering is there really a ton of difference between one 4x12 cab by whoever, peavey, fender, behringer, vox, carvin, etc? primarily, with the Fender head, my first priority is super loud but clean tone.
thanks,
Adam

Spindrift · Post by **Spindrift** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:09 am

There's going to be a huge difference between cabs based on the speakers inside. Beyond good or bad speakers, there is the matter of which speakers sound good with your amp. Some will be brighter and others will be really dark. Some will break up early, while others will stay clean even with a lot of volume being pushed through them.

You also need to make sure that the impedance of the speakers/cab match the amp.

Adam

bluesman · Post by **bluesman** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:14 am

I have found that the cheaper/lighter cabinets, especially the Behringer, tend to howl when driven hard with a lot of low frequency information. Its similar to the cone cry you get when micing a 12 inch speaker on the surround, but it is definately an artifact that is comming from the cabinet itself. The cabinet is made using wood so thin & light that the speaker baffle and cabinet back will resonate like a drum head, producing an overwhelming drone at certain frequencies.
Of course you need good speakers, but you should also be using a sturdier & better made cabinet, like a Marshall or Mesa. Im sure that there are other brands of sturdy cabinets that would work well, these are just the two that come to mind & they are certainly plentiful.

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:42 am

options and bang for buck here....

http://www.avatarspeakers.com/list%20guitar.htm

premiumdan · Post by **premiumdan** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:36 am

Adam:

I have a Hartke GH412 with Celestions (don't which kind).
Haven't tried to hit max-SPL's with it, but so far it seems good.
$200 (used) years ago, but I think Sam Ash is $200-new now...

It has some midrange for sure, but the high's aren't brittle.
Of course, I have the "speaker sim" going on my TDP preamp, so...

My .02

Cheers!
-Dan

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:44 am

yes, just as much as speaker selection, cabinet construction can have a HUGE impact on tone.

jaguarundi · Post by **jaguarundi** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:00 am

thanks dudes, that's extremely helpful. I'll be looking out for a nicely built cab, good speakers and the right impedance and will check out that Hartke one too.

Gentleman Jim · Post by **Gentleman Jim** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:35 am

What follows is opinion, not fact. Some others will have have valid opinions, and you might even get a worthwhile fact somewhere in this thread. But it probably won't come from me.

First, to answer your question: YES, there is a BIG difference among speaker cabinets. Don't think that just because a cabinet has the same speakers - or speakers that are supposed to be 'just like...' - that the cabinets will sound the same. They almost definitely will not.

If you are looking for a loud, clean tone, go for higher wattage speakers. You may find that a 2x12 cabinet with 100 watt speakers will fit your needs better than a 4x12 with 65 watt speakers. And if you're looking for loud, clean tone avoid 25/30/35 watt speakers altogether.

Have you considered the venerable Fender Twin? It's capable of being Entirely Too Damn Loud for most venues under 1000 capacity, it's easier to transport, and it's pretty much the gold standard for loud, clean tone. It will probably also be a touch cheaper to buy than a head and cabinet, and if you're talking about buying a Behringer cabinet then money is probably a concern. The only thing to be warned about with Twins is that you have to know what you're buying, as there are many different 'species,' such as Silver Face, Reissue, 70's, 80's, Super Twin, Red Knob "Evil Twin", and of course the original tweed. Don't just buy the first cheapest one you find on eBay. You have to play the amp before you buy.

jaguarundi · Post by **jaguarundi** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:41 am

Jim, yeah, I have considered a twin, which would seem more ideal. though I haven't gotten to road test one yet I remain skeptical it would compete with a 4x12 cab with a 100 watt head. the twin I played in a store started to break up a bit at higher volumes. I'm trying to get something that I don't have to rely on miking, cause that hasn't been working out too well lately. I've had people tell me the twin would work and maybe I'll try to borrow or rent one to try it, but it just doesn't seem like it would give me enough headroom, my drummer is really loud. . .

chris harris · Post by **chris harris** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:08 am

jaguarundi wrote:Jim, yeah, I have considered a twin, which would seem more ideal. though I haven't gotten to road test one yet I remain skeptical it would compete with a 4x12 cab with a 100 watt head. the twin I played in a store started to break up a bit at higher volumes. I'm trying to get something that I don't have to rely on miking, cause that hasn't been working out too well lately. I've had people tell me the twin would work and maybe I'll try to borrow or rent one to try it, but it just doesn't seem like it would give me enough headroom, my drummer is really loud. . .

Sounds like the Twin you played in the store was broken.

Gentleman Jim · Post by **Gentleman Jim** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:20 am

Well, a Dual Showman is the same amp as a Twin in a head/cab configuration, so there shouldn't be a huge difference between whatever Dual Showman you're playing and the same vintage of Twin. However, Twins are easier to find, and therefore probably cheaper.

I love the 70's Bassman 100 head. I've had one since about 1995, and I'm a huge cheerleader for the model. It's a quiet bass head, it's a somewhat loud guitar head. But it's nowhere near as loud or clean as a good Twin, even when using the 'normal' channel, which is the cleaner of its two channels.

Looking at your myspace, I see that you live in LA. It shouldn't be too hard to keep an eye open there for a good Twin that will make you the bane of house sound mixers everywhere. Again, keep in mind that Twins range from 85 watts to 185 watts, depending on the model. Tubes and other specifics come into play as well when thinking about how clean or dirty an amp is. Don't dismiss the whole line because of one you tried.

Have you considered going the rack mounted preamp/power amp route? In terms of sheer stupid volume I don't think you can top that.

Lastly, what is the name of this band? If your drummer is so loud that you require an amp with that much headroom I want to make sure I don't mistakenly come and see you. Seriously, if you need that much volume and you're not playing arenas, it's abusive.

Rolsen · Post by **Rolsen** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:40 am

As a former 'half stack' guy, let me give you this piece of advice: for practice and live playing, a 2x12 is more than sufficient, and can be transported in the trunk of a Kia. And with only 2 speakers to worry about, you can afford better ones. Often praised around here, the Avatar speaker enclosures are top-rate and you can load them with better speakers than what you'd get in a new marshall cab, but for a few hundred dollars less. In my case, I've got a vox ac30 head in half power mode (approx 22 watts) powering an Avatar cab loaded with a celestion g12h30 and a weber blue dog, a 30 watt speaker. If I start cranking the master volume on this setup, it will tear your face off. At reasonable volumes, it fills the rehearsal space as well as the un-mic'd stages around my parts.

I think in this day and age, the 100 watt half stack 'need' is one based on myth and legend, not actual sound reinforcement requirements.

chovie d · Post by **chovie d** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:18 am

I own a 68 showman. I prefer it to the twin becuase the twin is back breakingly heavy. Other than that, its basically the same amp...and yes, its super loud and clean. Showman is 85 watts. i have a 68 sunn 1200S that is 120 watts and the loudest clean amp Ive ever heard.

My showman sounds fantastic thru a 2x12 avatar with celestian V30's.
I have a 4x12 also and its about the same as the 2x12 volume wise.
Youd be fine with a 2x12.

The best cabs to my ears are hi-watts...they just have this tight and powerful sound to me. But im not a cork sniffer and my avatar cabs are fine to my ears and much more affordable. Great customer serivce too.

E-Rock · Post by **E-Rock** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:19 am

roscoenyc wrote:options and bang for buck here....

http://www.avatarspeakers.com/list%20guitar.htm

+1
I've got 2 of their cabs. They totally rock!

Brett Siler · Post by **Brett Siler** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:20 pm

E-Rock wrote:
roscoenyc wrote:options and bang for buck here....

http://www.avatarspeakers.com/list%20guitar.htm

+1
I've got 2 of their cabs. They totally rock!

+2
I have one, it rules.

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guitar cabinets: remarkably different?

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