cymbal bashers

[Mane1234]

I think playing it back for them is very helpful...a lot of drummers especially if they don't have a lot of experience recording are simply unaware of how god awful it sounds. I've used ribbon mics as OHs before and it still sounds like someone bashing cymbals but just darker.

[permanent hearing damage]

if only all the bands you recorded had as good of drummers as My Disco, The Red Scare, or...your own

ha, i wish i got to record Ro from My Disco all the time. considering he only has hihats now, i think. that would eliminate this problem entirely. funny enough, they will be back here next week with those fancy Emperor cabs they bought and i might record them just for kicks.

i take it you're in kid crash?

[drumsound]

You can try to move the cymbals about a half inch out and away from the drummer. The drummer won't need to change his kinestetics, but a little less stick will make contact with the cymbals.

[Gaz]

how did you know that? i'm super embarrassed now!

[permanent hearing damage]

link in your profile.

[Gaz]

the big "duh." and i knew who you were because of your profile, not becausei'm a lame fanboy type

[c burst]

If you have the channels you might try top and bottom mics on the toms. The bottom mics will probably sound a little weird on their own but will have less cymbal bleed than the top mics.

When I have a cymbal issue I try to make the drum area a little deader with baffling or a bigger rug.

Have fun!

C

[jakeao]

These type of post always seem to piss me off. ( maybe it comes from my drum bashing background ) Anyway, it amazes me that people would go through the trouble to alter the sound of the band. If you're hired to record the band, than good or bad record what you get. Now if the band wants you to produce them as well, or asks for your input on style and sounds then absolutely give them some help. I can't imaging asking a singer to change the way he sings because it doesn't sound "good" to me. That's my 2 cents.

[chris harris]

These type of post always seem to piss me off. ( maybe it comes from my drum bashing background ) Anyway, it amazes me that people would go through the trouble to alter the sound of the band. If you're hired to record the band, than good or bad record what you get. Now if the band wants you to produce them as well, or asks for your input on style and sounds then absolutely give them some help. I can't imaging asking a singer to change the way he sings because it doesn't sound "good" to me. That's my 2 cents.

I'm just gonna guess that you don't record other people for a living. EVERY band wants your input on sounds. That's just the reality of it. And, another reality is that 99% of all bands making their first recording have no idea what they actually sound like. That's why my first suggestion was to record them and play it back and let them hear how shitty it sounds. I would do the exact same thing with someone whose vocal sounded like shit because of bad technique.

It's definitely not my job to offer free music lessons to clients. But, I also feel that I'd be negligent in what actually IS my job if I didn't at least point out ways that bands can sound better.

Most of the time, you only run into these problems with bands who are either making their first recording, or they've recorded before and are trying to get their first GOOD recording because the first guy just stayed out of the way and captured the shitty sound of a band who have never heard their own music outside of the 5 ft. arc in front of their blazing amplifier. The recording engineer is often the first person a band comes into contact with who will give them an honest assessment of their sound.

[Gaz]

the thing is that cymbal bashing can sound great with the right drummer live, but it never sounds good on recording. that's because microphones don't work like human hearing, the only mimic it. "recording is a lie." as mr. crane once put it, and most people are just trying to make their recordings more accurate or 'real' to a certain extent. if there was a magic microphone that could make the drummer of my band, for example, sound like he did in our practice space then there would be no such thing as a recording engineer or even different brands of microphones for that matter. until then, i'm going to keep thinking up new tricks to tone down the cymbals to make them sound, get this, more real.

[drumsound]

These type of post always seem to piss me off. ( maybe it comes from my drum bashing background ) Anyway, it amazes me that people would go through the trouble to alter the sound of the band. If you're hired to record the band, than good or bad record what you get. Now if the band wants you to produce them as well, or asks for your input on style and sounds then absolutely give them some help. I can't imaging asking a singer to change the way he sings because it doesn't sound "good" to me. That's my 2 cents.

I'm just gonna guess that you don't record other people for a living. EVERY band wants your input on sounds. That's just the reality of it. And, another reality is that 99% of all bands making their first recording have no idea what they actually sound like. That's why my first suggestion was to record them and play it back and let them hear how shitty it sounds. I would do the exact same thing with someone whose vocal sounded like shit because of bad technique.

It's definitely not my job to offer free music lessons to clients. But, I also feel that I'd be negligent in what actually IS my job if I didn't at least point out ways that bands can sound better.

Most of the time, you only run into these problems with bands who are either making their first recording, or they've recorded before and are trying to get their first GOOD recording because the first guy just stayed out of the way and captured the shitty sound of a band who have never heard their own music outside of the 5 ft. arc in front of their blazing amplifier. The recording engineer is often the first person a band comes into contact with who will give them an honest assessment of their sound.

This is very true Subatomic. An engineer and/or producer is there to serve the band's best interest. Often times that is pointing out ways to make the record better. Sometimes that means getting the drummer to approach the cymbals differently in the studio than (s)he does when the cymbals are right next to 3 high powered amps.


Jakeao, also remember that not everyone has the Steve Albini dogma that you seem to have. And also remember BOTH are valid ways to make records. Kudos to you for having a philosophy that works for you and your clients, but remember it isn't the ONLY way.

[drumsound]

the thing is that cymbal bashing can sound great with the right drummer live, but it never sounds good on recording. that's because microphones don't work like human hearing, the only mimic it. "recording is a lie." as mr. crane once put it, and most people are just trying to make their recordings more accurate or 'real' to a certain extent. if there was a magic microphone that could make the drummer of my band, for example, sound like he did in our practice space then there would be no such thing as a recording engineer or even different brands of microphones for that matter. until then, i'm going to keep thinking up new tricks to tone down the cymbals to make them sound, get this, more real.

Not to get too far into semantics, because I appreciate your description quite a bit, but instead of more REAL might it be more appropriate?

[jakeao]

Jakeao, also remember that not everyone has the Steve Albini dogma that you seem to have. And also remember BOTH are valid ways to make records. Kudos to you for having a philosophy that works for you and your clients, but remember it isn't the ONLY way.

Having used both, I totally understand the two different approaches to recording. I wasn't very clear in my original post. When I record someone I start off by setting up mics and capturing what is played. I then play it back. if everyone is happy, great. If not then I try to make suggestions that will help get the sound the band is looking for. It just seems like poeple hear a band and right away they are thinking about how to change the sound of things. If the band has bashing cymbals, then give them bashing cymbals. If they don't like them but get them anyway, that's were I would step in and make a suggestion. The other issue is that cymbals sound different when played lightly or being bashed. It's a night and day different sound. I would maybe try to get the drummer to use some different cymbals, ones that sound better when bashed.

It just seems like there are so many post about changing the sound of drummers. I just have a hard time imaging someone asking a guitar play to change the way he plays because it's difficult to record.

There's two more of my cents

[Neil Weir]

This is such a tricky area for me. You don't want to do anything that will negatively effect the drummer's performance by making him self-conscious about his playing. Asking an inexperienced drummer to change his technique can make it a lot harder for the band to get a good take. I can't think of any situation where a slightly better sound is more important than a good performance. I tend to only point these issues out to more experienced drummers who I know can easily make changes and roll with it.

I also think you have to be careful that your suggestions don't alter the character of the band too much. There have been a lot of great records make by musicians who's sounds don't fit any sort of conventional definition of "good." I'd hate to hear what The Television Personalities, The Raincoats, The Urinals, or even the first couple Velvet Underground records would have sounded like had someone been steering them in the direction of more conventionally "good" sounds.

I've heard a lot of bands who have bizarre instrumental balances and tones that sound awful on their own but when they play together something very unique happens. So many times when these sorts of band go into the studio, these bizarre qualities end up getting lost for the sake of making things sound "better."

There have been times when I have fought a drummer's loud cymbals only to realize that I was negatively altering the character of the band by doing so...

I remember reading an interview with John Leckie about recording with the Fall. It was This Nation's Saving Grace, I think. He insisted that they all tune their guitars to a tuner. They started playing and it didn't sound like The Fall anymore. When the band took a break to eat, Leckie and his assistant went through the studio and turned the tuning pegs on all of the guitars to get them back to being slightly out of tune. When the band came back from eating, The Fall sound was back...

[drumsound]

I think there is a big difference between "altering greatness" and making a better recording. There have been many times when I've been working with a band that is really trying to do something simple and straight forward, not a unique vision like the Velvet Underground or what have you, just a solid rock band. When these, often inexperienced, players walk in the door they expect and desire that I make them sound great. They have probably never been in the microscope that is the studio, and don't have a true idea of what their band, or even their instruments, even sound like to anyone else. I go to great measures using a very wide and diverse pallet, to make them sound great. Sometimes that does in fact involve asking a player to alter their technique. Other times it's about listening to each other. Sometimes it has to do with playing a tempo that works better for the singer to be able to get all the words out. Sometimes I swap instruments or amps. ANY of these things CAN be valid in the record making process.