Patchbays for Dummies

[Ryan Silva]

So I think I understand how patchbays work, and how I would use them in my studio, but I have had no need until recently. So I am checking with you guys.

I use a Toft ATB16 v.2, and a Lynx Aurora 16, and have been mixing in the box until recently.

So with one 48point (TRS) patchbay I was thinking of running 16 ?? insert cables out of the Toft and into the patchbay (1-16), then I would set up ins and outs of outboard gear on (17-24). This should give me 8 pieces of outboard gear patchable to any of the 16 insert points on the Toft.

Worry #1 ? What the hell is normaled and half-normaled?
Worry #2 - Should I use TS cables to patch, or should I use TSR?
Worry #3 ? What should I buy? Hosa, ProCo, Nady, Switchcraft?

Thanks

[RefD]

1: normalled is where the connection between the gear remains unless you plug in a patch cable...half normalled it remains only at one end (IIRC)

2: TRS, unless you'll be playing alot of AD&D

3: no, yes, no, yes

[Ryan Silva]

2: TRS, unless you'll be playing alot of AD&D

Damn, that was one obscure publishing reference. Man did I give a lot of money to TSR in the 80s-90s

So in my situation what configuration (norm,halfnorm) should I use, and do all patchbays do this?

Thanks

[RefD]

many (tho not all) patchbays can do normalled, half normalled and non-normalled.

what you'll need depends on exactly how you want to do things...i mean, how many patch cables do you want dangling around in your patch field?

me, i have my inserts normalled and my outboard non-normalled.

what about your auxes?

can you give more details?

[sound for sandwiches]

2: TRS, unless you'll be playing alot of AD&D

Hi, first post, long lurk, you know the drill... anyway this particular comment sparked a question I have always wondered about how "real engineers" do it.

First off, I apologize if the above comment was simply a correction of TSR, and not an advocation of using balanced connections on gear.

but my question revolves around the latter assumption. Insert points on most consoles are unbalanced by nature, being as they are on a Tip-send Ring-return type setup. I always read that gear should be connected balanced whenever possible... if you were running insert points and outboard to a patchbay a la the OP, why would one bother with balanced connections for the outboard if they were to be patched into unbalanced inserts?

I guess real consoles have separate balanced insert send and return jacks.

thanks for reading. -david

[ott0bot]

How do you like the Toft ATB16?

I am considering saving up for one as my next major purchase. Looks and sounds great from the samples and videos, but you never know until you actually use one. And there aren't any stores with them in town? seriously.

[RefD]

2: TRS, unless you'll be playing alot of AD&D

Hi, first post, long lurk, you know the drill... anyway this particular comment sparked a question I have always wondered about how "real engineers" do it.

First off, I apologize if the above comment was simply a correction of TSR, and not an advocation of using balanced connections on gear.

but my question revolves around the latter assumption. Insert points on most consoles are unbalanced by nature, being as they are on a Tip-send Ring-return type setup. I always read that gear should be connected balanced whenever possible... if you were running insert points and outboard to a patchbay a la the OP, why would one bother with balanced connections for the outboard if they were to be patched into unbalanced inserts?

I guess real consoles have separate balanced insert send and return jacks.

thanks for reading. -david

you can use TRS cables and bays with unbalanced inserts (which are very common) without causing problems.

but TS cables with opamp balanced signals is another matter.

[Ryan Silva]

Sure,

At least to start with I am trying to have the ability to patch dynamics comps/gates into each individual channel(s). I will be using my aux(s) for Verb/Delays; I figure I won?t be using compressors much as aux send/returns.

Before the console the tracks are being grouped in Nuendo and sent out of the Lynx Aurora 16 example- (Channel 1,2 = Drums, 3 Bass, 4,5 Acoustic, 6,7 Electric Guitar, 8,9 Keyboards, 10,11 Vocals, 12,13 Backing Vocals, ect)

Mixes then go back into the Lynx (15-16) from the Master Out of the Toft

Am I missing something?

[Ryan Silva]

How do you like the Toft ATB16?

I am considering saving up for one as my next major purchase. Looks and sounds great from the samples and videos, but you never know until you actually use one. And there aren't any stores with them in town? seriously.

It won't be here until tomorrow, just preparing. I have been waiting for the new version for months; it has been on back order for quite awhile. I did get to hear the 'Pilot' version about a year ago, and what struck me right away was the EQ quality, I never had a chance to record anything through there pre's, but I spent some time working with one of the outboard rack units, and the pre's sound great, well they sound better than Mackie Onyx, Soundcraft Ghost, RNP (barely) not quite as nice as API, True, or Great River as you would expect.

I will keep you informed with opinions as I form them

Thanks

[cgarges]

my question revolves around the latter assumption. Insert points on most consoles are unbalanced by nature, being as they are on a Tip-send Ring-return type setup. I always read that gear should be connected balanced whenever possible... if you were running insert points and outboard to a patchbay a la the OP, why would one bother with balanced connections for the outboard if they were to be patched into unbalanced inserts?

In case you wanted to patch something besides the insert send into that particular piece of gear.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Anthony Caruso]

Half normalling seems to be a pretty useful setup in most scenarios. Think of it like this...

You have your main console outputs (L&R) above the returns to the Aurora (15 & 16).
If your points are half normalled, that means you can patch a duplicate out of the console main outs to somewhere else and STILL have the main outs feeding the Aurora. Useful if you wanted to print to a standalone CD or tape recorder simultaneous to printing to the DAW.

Lets say you have your Aurora outs over your channel inputs on the console. Half normalled. Not only do you never have to patch the Aurora outs into the console, but you could take a duplicate signal of the drums (Auroroa 1&2) and send them to a compressor, then return them to 2 other channels on the board while STILL feeding into your usual console channels (ie drums still hit channels 1&2 on the console, compressed drum signal now resides simultaneously on 2 other channels/tape returns/aux inputs/wherever you can fit them etc.)

So the clever way to wire your patch bay is to half normal (or normal, I prefer half because it is a bit more flexible) things that are always going to be feeding each other, such as mic tie lines-> console pre inputs, channel direct outs or buss outputs -> Auroroa inputs, Aurora outputs -> channel line inputs on console, CR out of console -> monitor set A, etc. It saves patching and lets you dupe signals without a mult.

[homestudiogallery]

Does any one make a digital patch bay? Something you can plug all you outboard to in the back via TRS or even xlr. Then from either the computer or some simple hardware interface control where the sound goes. It just seems to easy to loose some sound or gain noise through all the extra cables patch bays promise.

[cgarges]

A digitaly-controlled patchbay that just controls routing would still have all the connectors on it. There are digital patchbays that carry a digital signal (I have one for sale, actually), but they JUST deal with digital signal and not analog signal. (The one I have has lightpipe I/Os.)

Hard-wired patchbays (with solder-type connections on the back) are generally a little better in terms of signal loss than the "plug in connector"-type bays, but the truth is that most of the records in anyone's collection have probably involved most of the signals going through hundreds of feet of cable and a patchbay at least twice. If the bay is properly wired, then to my ears, the minimal loss that does occur is worth the trade-off in flexibility and efficiency.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[homestudiogallery]

Good point.