On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

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niccolo gallio
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On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by niccolo gallio » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:49 am

Hi all, first post here from a dude that registered last year to buy something from the classifieds section.. :oops:
I'd like to gather some opinions/suggestions about how do you go about using out-of-kick (OOK) mic and room mic(s) when recording drums.
Especially:
On OOK mic: Do you feel that the spill from the whole kit is to be avoided? what means do you use? Mechanical? (tunnels etc.), physical/electrical? (different polar patterns..) or you do gate it totally? (maybe using the inside mic as trigger..).
Do you feel the need to time-align it when using it in conjunction with an inside-the-kick mic?
Do you perform any kind of complementary EQ on both?

Regarding the room mics, how many do you use? if stereo, in what configuration? Also, do you feel that is necessary to time align them regarding the main OH's? Do you specifically cut certain frequencies? (lows?) And, if you use them to bring out only certain elements of a kit (i.e. snare), do you gate 'em triggered by that element?

More thoughts?

Many thanks

Niccolo

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Post by suppositron » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:13 am

Wow that's a lot of questions.

For out of kick mic it depends how far away you want to put it and how much bleed you are willing do deal with. I like having it a few feet back inside a tunnel of blakets. Use that one for all the low end. Use the inside kick mic for the attack. You will probably have to flip the phase and maybe roll off some low end in the inside mic, but it really depends on how the low end works together with the two. You can time align if you want but you will push other things out of phase by doing that. I think you should find a spot where all you have to do at most is flip the polarity.

Room mics: I like stereo spaced pair. Gating to snare and toms is good. If you have a good room you shouldn't have to eq them.

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Post by drumsound » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:51 am

I never gate to tape (and rarely after). When I use an outside BD mic it's usually for some nice lows. A blanket over the BD is often helpful, but not always necessary. I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II. That things is super cool.

I've done a million things for room mics, this weekend it was a mono ribbon low and not that far our with some compression. Often it's spaced omnis. Rarely do I EQ room mics when I mix, but about 25% of the time I apply a low cut while I track.

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Post by niccolo gallio » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:50 am

Thanks folks, that is some food for thoughts.
And a new mic added to my curiosity (e602II)

thanks and keep those tips comin' please..

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Post by mjau » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:20 am

drumsound wrote:I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II. That things is super cool.
Yeah, that mic does a nice job of capturing a balance between snap and tone, doesn't it?

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Post by drumsound » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:18 am

mjau wrote:
drumsound wrote:I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II. That things is super cool.
Yeah, that mic does a nice job of capturing a balance between snap and tone, doesn't it?
It really does!

I may be up your way mid August BTW.

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Post by T-rex » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:37 pm

drumsound wrote:
mjau wrote:
drumsound wrote:I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II. That things is super cool.
Yeah, that mic does a nice job of capturing a balance between snap and tone, doesn't it?
It really does!
Hey guys,

Where are you "generally" placing the 602? I love that mic but I always use an outside mic with it. although I didn't like my d112 without a lot of eq, I could put it right in the front head hole of almost any bd and get a nice balance of snap and boom if I was only going to use one bd mic. I haven't really found that with the 602 yet?

To answer the posters question, I usually use a mono room mic with stereo overheads or stereo room mics if I use a mono overhead. I usually always record drums in stereo so I change back and forth between stereo overheads and stereo rooms. My room isn't that big and getting the phase right between stereo overheads and stereo rooms is too much of a pain in the butt.

I usually use an LDC directly outside the kick drum, like a few inches off the head to provide a huge bottom end with the proximity affect and throw a blanket over the bass drum and outside bd mic. That way I don't have to eq out the cymbals from the outside bass drum mic.
[Asked whether his shades are prescription or just to look cool]
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Post by drumsound » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:00 pm

This weekend I had the whole mic inside the hole with the back of the mic about a inch or two from the front head. aiming and BD muffling varied a bit.

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Post by trodden » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:12 pm

e602 original version user here.. i'm still loving some outside of kick mic as well as the e602, but if had to to only have one, the e602 would work. most of the time e602 is about 3-5 inches away from the beater head.. and moved around to get a good balance of attack and drum sound. sometimes it point more up, sometimes more to the side.. just depends... i'm using a at 4047 for front head mic in combo.. usually about 2-6 inches away.. depending.

Sometmes i will time align the two kick mics, sometimes just messing with polarity reversal gets it good and I just move on...

If i were to not use the 4047 for a font kick head mic, i'd probably back the e602 out a bit more and try for more drum sound/ attack balance..

as for room mic's it varies.. but never time align them. in my kinda boring crappy room, normally its a mono or mid/side set up. in the nice sounding room i get to work in sometimes.. its a mid side a few feet out front, then a couple of mono room mic's at different distances.

I always use stereo overheads... lately, ORTF or spaced pair.

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Post by niccolo gallio » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:03 am

Thanks a lot folks.
Now I'm kinda horny myself for that 602..
Last session I did was with an M88 inside the BD, a Lawson L47 a foot 1/2 outside, in figure 8 with the null pointed at the cymbal/snare area.
Flipping polarity was enough on the OOK but since I had no blanket nor cover for the OOK, I got a lot of spill from the kit. Gated the OOK with the trigger from the IOK and the result was acceptable, but any eq'ing on the OOK resulted in obvious coloration of anything was played at the same time of it (cymb.).
I guess I've got much work to do in this area too.

Thanks for the input tho

nicco

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Re: On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:21 am

niccolo gallio wrote: On OOK mic: Do you feel that the spill from the whole kit is to be avoided?
sometimes. usually its ok. i'd use a blanket on the drum if it really seemed problematic.
Do you feel the need to time-align it when using it in conjunction with an inside-the-kick mic?
no. i just move the mics around and find complimentary spots. although i rarely have a mic actually in the kick. it's more likely a dynamic up close to the front head and a condensor a ways back.
Do you perform any kind of complementary EQ on both?
if i have to. i don't like to eq drums so i try to get it right with tuning and mic placement.
Regarding the room mics, how many do you use?
usually 2
if stereo, in what configuration?
omni's on the floor, ~6 feet from the kit, spaced a couple feet apart.
Also, do you feel that is necessary to time align them regarding the main OH's?
only if you want it to sound bad
Do you specifically cut certain frequencies? (lows?)
usually not. if anything is a problem it's usually the high end, so i might shelf them down a little or a lot.
And, if you use them to bring out only certain elements of a kit (i.e. snare), do you gate 'em triggered by that element?
haven't really messed with gates much. if i'm recording myself i just try and hit the snare harder than anything else, so it's the loudest thing in the room mics by default.

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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:01 am

Lots of good posts here so far.
I frequently use 2 mics on kick myself. I usually go for a dynamic inside and a condenser or ribbon outside. Lately I've been using an m88 inside and a MXL 2001 outside (not my favorite mic for anything else but it works well here). In the past I've used a PZM inside , or an old plastic RFT large diaphram dynamic or an RE15 or D112. The inside mic is mainly for the attack so it's not a big deal if it doesn't pick up tons of low end. If the drum doesn't have a hole in the skin I'll put the inside mic on the beater head side.

I find putting a packing blanket over the front of the kick helps keep the rest of the kit out of that OOK mic. Sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't.

As for room mics, I've used anything and everything and it all depends on the session, room, song, player etc, etc, etc. I often use a mono room mic. i rarely track with compression but I will often squash the living shit out of the room mic with a limiter (alesis micro limiter, or an ADL, or an Altec 1612B). It depends on what you're going for and how it's going to sit in the mix. This works best if the drums are isolated otherwise you just end up with a ton of junk in the room mic.

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Post by DupleMeter » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:34 am

I record a lot of jazz and therefore the drummers rarely have a hole cut in the kick drum head...so I rarely use an inside mic.

An outside mic that I love is the AKG C4000B - it seems to get a great low end with a good snap with a ton of bloom. I also use an SM7b quite a bit for kick.

My favorite jazz kit setup is my DPA 3521 set as overheads (usually spaced, but sometime ORTF) with the C4000B about 4 feet in front of the kit about equal to the drummers chest in height.

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Post by *cisko* » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:58 pm

out of kick mic, i rarely se one since i can get that sound form the room mics, to compliment my in kick mic. but if used, just dog house it, it also helps keep the kick out of hte over heads.
on the room mics, it depends on the room, check to see where you can have them set up with the kit that doesnt give you phase issues first! then look for the timbre you want to give the room by changing mics, use anything you got, even crappy dynamics make great room mics if you want a trashy lo fi sound. if in stereo I favor blumlein, i think it gives the best possible clarity of the room , wide enough image and great sonics.

i also love mono room mics aiming at the most random places.

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Post by jrjr » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:06 pm

i recently used an old speaker (10" i guess) as a subbass kickdrum mic. it was selfmade, but i think yamaha build something similar. but it`s just a speaker with a xlr attacheted to it really.
it`s not an all the way substitute for an ook mic when you`re looking for "boominess", but a little bit of the signal added really makes the bd bigger, in good ways. so it`s like a substitute for extremely boosting low freq., i guess.

when it comes to room mics, it`s all about walking up and down the room searching for sweet spots. a small condenser behind the drummer, like 2meters away (sorry only metric system around here, 2meters is aproximately the size of a full grown drummer) often adds live (life?) to the whole thing especially the snare, in my experience.

excuse the fantasy english.

oh, and what does "dog housing" a mic mean?

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