On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

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Post by themagicmanmdt » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:57 pm

MSE - good post.

everyone loves doing the room mics close to the floor it seems. i suppose it gets that feeling of bleed from amplifiers, and it picks up more boom and less 'pat' from the toms. cool. interesting.
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Re: On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by trodden » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:23 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote: omni's on the floor, ~6 feet from the kit, spaced a couple feet apart.
Yeah Scoot, you've got a wood floor in your place right? I've got that industrial carpet stuff, like they use in schools... you think some ply wood squares, like 1' X 1' would be good to put down and the mic's on top of that? or just right on the carpet.. since its that really thin/non-shag stuff. ...

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Post by drumsound » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:15 am

jrjr wrote:i recently used an old speaker (10" i guess) as a subbass kickdrum mic. it was selfmade, but i think yamaha build something similar. but it`s just a speaker with a xlr attacheted to it really.
it`s not an all the way substitute for an ook mic when you`re looking for "boominess", but a little bit of the signal added really makes the bd bigger, in good ways. so it`s like a substitute for extremely boosting low freq., i guess.

when it comes to room mics, it`s all about walking up and down the room searching for sweet spots. a small condenser behind the drummer, like 2meters away (sorry only metric system around here, 2meters is aproximately the size of a full grown drummer) often adds live (life?) to the whole thing especially the snare, in my experience.

excuse the fantasy english.

oh, and what does "dog housing" a mic mean?
You English is quite good for a "non-native" speaker. Better than I do in any language but my own!

"Dog Housing" is putting a blanket or something over the bass drum to prevent bleed in and out.

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Re: On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:01 pm

trodden wrote:Yeah Scoot, you've got a wood floor in your place right?
yeah. i think it'd be worth trying some pieces of wood under the mics at your place...easy enough to record with and without them and compare the difference...

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Re: On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:46 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
trodden wrote:Yeah Scoot, you've got a wood floor in your place right?
yeah. i think it'd be worth trying some pieces of wood under the mics at your place...easy enough to record with and without them and compare the difference...
I've done this, and it can definitely sound really cool.

The studio where I went to school, had that thin carpeting with concrete underneath, like what Trodden is describing. They had a pretty good sized sheet of cedar that I would lay down on the floor in front of the source if I wanted more direct reflections. Worked awesome for acoustic guitar players. I never set the mic right on top, but would put it real close.

Never tried it with drums though, cause the room was gigantic, and I mostly was fighting to make things sound LESS roomy.
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Post by dubh dubh dubh » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:33 am

for anything 'rock-ish' I often use an SM58 (or beta58, not so keen on the beta-A58) inside the kick, maybe about 40% of the shell's depth from the beater, and then a beta52 or robust ribbon 6" to a foot or so (15-30cm ?) outside it. I rarely doghouse it, though have probably 50+ times... depends on the room and leakage desirability. Sometimes the leakage is great! Have had a couple occasions to use a shotgun mic outside the kick, can't remember makes or models, but that can be pretty cool. PZM's inside can work realllly well too....

Room mics always depend on the room... I've had good luck using 2 identical lengths of 2"x6" plywood for room mics, or 1x10's... I really like this 'cos you can visualize the distance, get 'em equal, and keep an equal angle. Has worked especially well if space allows to butt 2 corners of the planks together so you can judge angle. Yes I carry a cheap plastic protractor with me just in case :) I Like to use fig. 8 or wide cardioid mics for this; height varies tremendously from session to session, as does angle, but often it's about 60? between mics and distance from 7-10 feet. Whenever possible, I try for a snare-height mono room mic about the same distance back; usually cardioid but whatever sounds best/is available. Phasing can get tricky if using close mics and 3 or more room mics, but I'm a freak who enjoys working it out. If it sounds better, I time-align them.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to do this, but the last several dozen bands I've tracked, or if I know I'm gonna mix it but not track it, I will (or ask the tracking engineer to) sit on the drum stool with a balloon right up against the kick head, then with ALL the drum mics recording, pop the balloon to give me a baseline impulse snapshot of delays between mics.... this can really help if you need to nudge stuff or track down which mics to phase flip.
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Re: On the use of Out-of-kick mic and room mic(s)

Post by trodden » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:29 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
trodden wrote:Yeah Scoot, you've got a wood floor in your place right?
yeah. i think it'd be worth trying some pieces of wood under the mics at your place...easy enough to record with and without them and compare the difference...
yeah, tried the stereo omni on the floor thing last night... just on the carpet, no wood (unlike when with your mom) and sounds quite useable. My room isn't really great sounding at all.. however, with the on the floor omni's, a pzm taped up on the sliding glass door (about 15' in front of drums, and the overheads, its a great picture of the drum kit, sounds really cool with just those elements, no close mic's... but the close mic's will be used in the mix. Definitely better sounding than other stereo room mic set ups that i've tried before at my place. Mono usually works best here, and save stereo or mid/side when recording drums in a lot better room down the road.

gonna get some plywood to add to the equation next time, see if that brighten things up.

plus, first time getting to use my new omni caps for my joly modded 012's. sounds good.

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Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:05 pm

drumsound wrote:I I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II.
That just had me laughing my ass off. I wonder if the e602 is going to be part of what people call the "brooklyn sound" in a couple of years.

Um yeah, i love my e602 as well. Only mic branded as a kick drum mic that I've ever liked. I usually end up with it inside the drum about an inch from where the beater hits the head. But I've used it in like a thousand different positions. It just sounds good on a good drum.

As far as room mics, I'll use whatever I think I need. Usually I'll have a close room in front, a further room in front and a third one behind the kit. But I don't necessarily use them all when mixing. In fact I just mixed a record for a band called Pale Brother from DC where I didn't use any of the room mics! Just the bricasti verb room settings. And it ended up sounding great.

Finally, though i think it's been put out there so far (if pretty harshly), time aligning room mics is really just silly. The whole point is that you get a feel for the room and the distance around it. You just have to move them around until they sound good. And if you're mixing and it turns out that the phase is kinda funny just don't use it! You can always cut things later.

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Post by drumsound » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:45 pm

Marc Alan Goodman wrote:
drumsound wrote:I I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II.
That just had me laughing my ass off. I wonder if the e602 is going to be part of what people call the "brooklyn sound" in a couple of years.

Um yeah, i love my e602 as well. Only mic branded as a kick drum mic that I've ever liked. I usually end up with it inside the drum about an inch from where the beater hits the head. But I've used it in like a thousand different positions. It just sounds good on a good drum.

As far as room mics, I'll use whatever I think I need. Usually I'll have a close room in front, a further room in front and a third one behind the kit. But I don't necessarily use them all when mixing. In fact I just mixed a record for a band called Pale Brother from DC where I didn't use any of the room mics! Just the bricasti verb room settings. And it ended up sounding great.

Finally, though i think it's been put out there so far (if pretty harshly), time aligning room mics is really just silly. The whole point is that you get a feel for the room and the distance around it. You just have to move them around until they sound good. And if you're mixing and it turns out that the phase is kinda funny just don't use it! You can always cut things later.
All you Brooklyn dudes use that mic, and I never remember the number, so Brooklyn BD mic is what I call it...

You underlinded last paragraph is soooooo true. Time align the mics that are used to give space, which is identified by the time delay of sound hitting said mics? Why do people do that?

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Post by trodden » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:54 pm

drumsound wrote:
Marc Alan Goodman wrote:
drumsound wrote:I I haven't been doing as much in and out BD micing because I got this infamous Brooklyn BD mic, the Sennheiser e602II.
That just had me laughing my ass off. I wonder if the e602 is going to be part of what people call the "brooklyn sound" in a couple of years.

Um yeah, i love my e602 as well. Only mic branded as a kick drum mic that I've ever liked. I usually end up with it inside the drum about an inch from where the beater hits the head. But I've used it in like a thousand different positions. It just sounds good on a good drum.

As far as room mics, I'll use whatever I think I need. Usually I'll have a close room in front, a further room in front and a third one behind the kit. But I don't necessarily use them all when mixing. In fact I just mixed a record for a band called Pale Brother from DC where I didn't use any of the room mics! Just the bricasti verb room settings. And it ended up sounding great.

Finally, though i think it's been put out there so far (if pretty harshly), time aligning room mics is really just silly. The whole point is that you get a feel for the room and the distance around it. You just have to move them around until they sound good. And if you're mixing and it turns out that the phase is kinda funny just don't use it! You can always cut things later.
All you Brooklyn dudes use that mic, and I never remember the number, so Brooklyn BD mic is what I call it...

You underlinded last paragraph is soooooo true. Time align the mics that are used to give space, which is identified by the time delay of sound hitting said mics? Why do people do that?
yeah, i understand adding more delay on room mics... but not time aligning them...

however, i have done that with guitar tracks sometimes... due to crappy mic placement... using an omni room... sliding it back in with the close mic.. i still hear "room" due to what the mic "heard" but not the phase relationship between the close mic and the room mic.

so i guess, whatever works... but drums, well, they're a phase beast.. and rather not move anything..

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Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:11 pm

trodden wrote:so i guess, whatever works...
Damn straight.

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Post by mwerden » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:23 pm

I like to time align my room mics so they happen before the close mics. So I can really get that in your face sound.
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Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:28 pm

matt now people are going to think you're serious and start doing that...

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Post by drumsound » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:07 am

Marc Alan Goodman wrote:matt now people are going to think you're serious and start doing that...
He's gonna start a trend and it's all we'll hear for the next 5 years!

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Post by mwerden » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:21 am

drumsound wrote:
Marc Alan Goodman wrote:matt now people are going to think you're serious and start doing that...
He's gonna start a trend and it's all we'll hear for the next 5 years!
Does that mean I get royalties?
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